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JBuilder reportedly migrating to Eclipse?
The Register is reporting that Borland is releasing code from JBuilder into the Eclipse community, which would seem to make JBuilder much like IBM's WSAD product, a full-featured IDE built on the Eclipse platform.
Borland has not made any press releases public, so this news should be taken with a grain of salt, although other indicators from Borland show that the company has considered the benefits of such a move.
Has anyone verified this? Do you think the JBuilder enterprise suite is strong enough to support an Eclipse aftermarket?
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Message #167535
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From the linked article
The company's decision, while not unexpected, will be seen by some in the open source community as an attempt to use Eclipse as dumping ground for dying products.
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Message #167547
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From the linked article
The company's decision, while not unexpected, will be seen by some in the open source community as an attempt to use Eclipse as dumping ground for dying products.
Then, gentlemen... start your dumping! If Borland's contributions are undeserving, then the community will allow them to die the death they would have anyway.
But often, such contributions of corpse-ware become a Firefox, or an SapDb, or a Laszlo. Personally, I like having the choices.
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Message #167549
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From the linked article
The company's decision, while not unexpected, will be seen by some in the open source community as an attempt to use Eclipse as dumping ground for dying products.
The reason why they are doing this is in the first paragraph, ``...after a surprise drop in first-quarter sales. The company hopes to offset JBuilder's R&D expenses by putting the suite into Eclipse,..."
This is no different than what IBM has been doing all along.
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Message #167558
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If it is good...
Eclipse and NetBeans are taking the market of Java development by storm, the JBuilder suite will not stand for a long time against these two free and open source products.
Borland is just doing as IBM did a lot of time ago, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they can make money with this as IBM, maybe not. Only time will tell.
If the code is good and usefull, bundle it, if it's not, send it to the trash.
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Message #167571
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Not exactly what they said at EclipseCon...
I was at Borland's talk at EclipseCon (David I and their CTO Pat-something-or-other) and I don't remember anything about open sourcing JBuilder. In fact I seem to recall them implying they could build something in top of Eclipse (on top of WTP?). Perhaps they are considering donating something to WTP? Did the CEO actually say something about open sourcing some of their stuff? They've never done that in the past, IIRC...
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Message #167578
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Not exactly what they said at EclipseCon...
Did the CEO actually say something about open sourcing some of their stuff? They've never done that in the past, IIRC...
Can you say: Interbase (aka FirebirdDB)?
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Message #167585
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The glory days are over
The glory days of JBuilder are over. I remember the times when xdoclet wasn't there to help you with writing EJBs. JBuilder made it easy to develop EJBs without having to write your own deployment descriptors. Few are willing to fork out about $3600 to have that convenience these days. I can't see the added value from using JBuilder compared to IDEA or Eclipse. It looks like Borland is that as well.
Mikael
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Message #167594
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From the linked article
The company's decision, while not unexpected, will be seen by some in the open source community as an attempt to use Eclipse as dumping ground for dying products. Then, gentlemen... start your dumping! If Borland's contributions are undeserving, then the community will allow them to die the death they would have anyway.But often, such contributions of corpse-ware become a Firefox, or an SapDb, or a Laszlo. Personally, I like having the choices.
I agree. Weblogic is doing the same thing with Workshop by creating Beehive and Pollinate.
I think the exposure of these things via open source communities allow many more people to see their wares than what demo licenses and advertising could ever do. The inate fear of the Java community of "propietary software" hinders good ideas from being seen by a wide audience.
I applaud those who realize that there are many more ways to make money from their software products than just selling them outright as-is.
John Murray
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Message #167610
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Almost
Though it's been a few months... the last time I downloaded JDeveloper I got a call from a friendly Oracle sales representative who indicated that it was free as long as you were using it to develop an applications that wasn't currently in production.
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Message #167626
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Eclipse is the only way to fly...
This will make Eclipse actually useful for the first time in history!
Hilarious, you must be one of those hill people, hiding under a rock for the last 4 years.
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Message #167646
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If it is good...
Borland is just doing as IBM did a lot of time ago, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe they can make money with this as IBM, maybe not. Only time will tell.
You are either ignorant, or trying to spread a lie.
Eclipse WAS created by IBM.
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Message #167648
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We're not a dump
The company's decision, while not unexpected, will be seen by some in the open source community as an attempt to use Eclipse as dumping ground for dying products.
You would have to fool a lot of people to use Eclipse as a dumping ground. The development process we use has numerous checks --- both by the Eclipse Foundation and the Eclipse community --- to ensure that projects are real and well supported before they are created. Just because a project is proposed at Eclipse does not necessarily mean it gets created.
For you process junkies,check out our development process
I honestly don't know what Borland may or may not be planning. But IMHO, putting existing code into an open source project is not inherently bad. The main thing to look for is whether a new project can create a community of committers and contributors around it to ensure that it has a solid opportunity to succeed. Of course, it also helps if the code is solid and useful as well.
Mike Milinkovich
Eclipse Foundation
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Message #167651
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Others also will follow soon
It is always good to have one common platform with different features. Example Eclipse for common and WSAD for Websphere. Something like that if we have for all other app servers, any developer can work in any IDE.
I hope other vendors also will follow soon.
Regards,
Murugan
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Message #167656
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Take with a grain of salt...
This is a response from John Kaster of Borland Developer Relations:
http://www.lemanix.com/nick/archive/2005/04/22/1986.aspx#1987
<quote>
I will be generous, because of the tendency of the register to be sensationalistic, and just say that this is a really major case of someone jumping to the wrong conclusion.
We are planning on building the "JBuilder experience" on Eclipse in addition to its current Primetime implementation.
Taking that information and stating that "JBuilder is now open source" is extremely irresponsible, in addition to being plain wrong.
The Register is definitely living up to its tagline as being "The Hand that bites IT." Hopefully most people will recognize their tendency to exaggerate situations and not place too much stock in their misconceptions.
The first two sentences of his article are, well, totally his own bad analysis, rather than based on anything anyone at Borland would say.
</quote>
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Message #167697
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JBuilder is still the best
IMHO, believe it or not, for my needs JBuilder is still the best Java IDE and I am not doing EJBs (of course ;))!
I played with IDEA, Eclipse, NetBeans, they are all great IDEs (better or on pair with VS, certainly ;) ), but overall, for me JBuilder is still better.
JBuilder Editor is on pair with mentioned IDEs (sure with some strengths and weeknesses, btw. did you tried JBuilder's sync-edit, very simple but extremely usefull feature borrowed from Borland's Delphi), but where I found JBuilder excels is support for many various Java, J2EE and other technologies (Servlets, JSP, JSF, JSTL, RMI, CORBA, WS, EJB...). No other IDE is any near JBuilder in that.
The main problem with JBuilder is that is costs a lot and that there are free and/or cheaper IDEs making spending 3500$ for JBuilder Enterprise questionable.
The second JBuilder problem (that is addresed by Borland lately) are available patches.
The third main JBuilder's problem is that it's main arhchtect and creator of Primetime IDE framework Blake Stone was hired by M$!!! (the history repeated itself as Deplhi's architect Anders Hejlsberg and creator was alse hired by M$).
What is not widely known in Java community (especialy on The ServerSide ;)) is that JBuilder was the first IDE with open architecture (before Eclipse ;) that supported easy plugin writting. Borland anemic marketing is responsible that this is not widely known.
And JBuilder is still the no. 1 selling commercial IDE, but obviosly used less then free IDEs.
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Message #167712
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JBuilder is still the best
And JBuilder is still the no. 1 selling commercial IDE, but obviosly used less then free IDEs.
Just curious - how have you calculated no. 1 here?
Total number of developers or just total $$ spent?
Anyway I think that 3500 dollars for IDE that does a lot of stuff an average developer will never use anyway is definitely overkill. Especially if you have to count teams of 10 or more developers. I expect JBuilder either will be sold for under $500 or will slowly die out. Most of people I know use either Eclipse or IDEA. Unless your company already invested a lot in Borland tools, you definitely need an overenthusiastic boss to buy JBuilder for you.
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Message #167714
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JBuilder is still the best
IMHO, believe it or not, for my needs JBuilder is still the best Java IDE and I am not doing EJBs (of course ;))!I played with IDEA, Eclipse, NetBeans, they are all great IDEs (better or on pair with VS, certainly ;) ), but overall, for me JBuilder is still better.
My thoughts exactly. If and when (and I fear it's when) Borland abandons JBuilder for a set of Eclipse plugins I'll abandon Borland after being a loyal customer for some 15 years.
I've tried Netbeans, I used Eclipse for almost 2 years, neither comes close.
JBuilder built on top of Eclipse can't remove the things I don't like in Eclipse like its project system and core editors.
I'd rather stick with my current JBuilder 2005 for the next decade than move to an Eclipse based implementation.
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Message #167720
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Borland Enterprise Builder
Imagine: Borland Enterprise Builder featuring:
Kylix, .NET and JAVA
Write code in what ever you like, deploy to where ever you like. Specially what I like is the "Borland Exelsior plugin" that lets you export to native executables :))
Not to mention the "UML Omondo Togehter Eclipse" rondtrip development method.
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Message #167735
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the open source effect
I can only imagine (hope) that borland has something greater in mind then simply writing a java ide as plugins. Then again the together suite has been treated as a cash cow, and not significantly improved.
together -> cash cow
jbuilder -> cash cow
.. they must be working on something new.
Shame about losing Blake Stone to M$.
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Message #167739
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JBuilder is still the best
JBuilder built on top of Eclipse can't remove the things I don't like in Eclipse like its project system and core editors.
I'm curious. What's wrong with the project system? What is it like in JBuilder?
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Message #167801
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I still like JBuilder (for now)
I can't speak for the orginal post. But for me, I still like to stick to JBuilder for a while after 2 attempts to try to use Eclipse. The first try was about 1 year ago, and second one is recently.
The main issue with Ellipse is that I can't do incremental compilation in Eclipse. And I like JBuilder automatically pickups my src files once I inidcate where my java files are in my project properties. No more workspace or other stuff.
This does not mean JBuilder is the best. It just that I get used to it. I only use JBuilder Foundation (free version) as editor and nothting else.
JBuilder takes a lot of memory. For my project, it can easily takes about 200-300 MB of RAM, so sometimes you have to quit and restart.
Next time, I think I will try emacs for a change, :-).
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Message #167926
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I still like JBuilder (for now)
The main issue with Ellipse is that I can't do incremental compilation in Eclipse.
Well, I can. :) Eclipse uses incremental compilation by default.
And I like JBuilder automatically pickups my src files once I inidcate where my java files are in my project properties. No more workspace or other stuff.
If you create a new project for an external project created by another program, Eclipse will automatically find source folders and jars.
So you can have projects outside the workspace.
I'm sure JBuilder has some cool features, but you shouldn't ignore Eclipse for the reasons you stated here, because they are invalid.
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Message #167950
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I still like JBuilder (for now)
The main issue with Ellipse is that I can't do incremental compilation in Eclipse.
Well, I can. :) Eclipse uses incremental compilation by default.
I did not express clearly (or I use the wrong word to express it). What I mean is I can't seem to compile individual file instead of compiling all the files in the project. It could be that I don't know how to use eclipse. But I asked around, those who currently use Eclipse does not seem to know how to do it either. So I gave up.
If you create a new project for an external project created by another program, Eclipse will automatically find source folders and jars.
So you can have projects outside the workspace.
I don't know that Eclipse can do that. I will try again some time.
Thanks
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Message #168024
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I still like JBuilder (for now)
Happy to see I am not the onliy one. I have tried Eclipse for 2-3 times and everytime I have gone back to my JBuilder. I am really more comfortable with JBuilder. I like NetBeans too but again I like JBuilder more.
It's a pitty to see jBuilder is going down. Once Borland put all its efforts on JBuilder instead of Delphi. This caused Delphi to go out of the scope (I was a Delphi programmer for 10 years.) At that time I was sure that putting so much effort on JBuilder is the biggest mistake Borlnad may do.
Now both of their best products are going down.
I think there is a reason why M$ can hire best architects of borland so easily. After sometimes they understand that borland does not have a future and try to stick to a more powerful company.
Mac
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Message #168063
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Commoditization of IDE's
Borland has been slow to react to the commoditization of the IDE.
It is only a matter of time before free or cheap IDE's eclipse the feature set of JBuilder. Borland did have a large head start as JBuilder has always had great breadth that was nice and tightly integrated. But as Java changed and new areas became the focus of significant changes, JBuilder has been put into the same position as all of the other IDE's. Trying to react to the new J2EE model, significant language changes, JSF, Struts, Velocity, other open-source libraries being incredibly important and prominent in Java, and new application servers or atlernatives gaining ground.
Eclipse still suffers a bit from the building block feel creeping into the UI, whereas JBuilder or IntelliJ have a smoother feel and single point of reference. Again, only a matter of time for that to change. And is that difference worth $2500 or more?
I'm finding it harder to continue my subscription; and I wrote the first line of code for the IDE and have great personal attachment, and the budget to afford it. I have more important areas that need the money whereas small usability differences do not warrant as much attention as the pricing demands.
I can't get a sense of what is important to Borland anymore. I suspect far too many meetings of people trying to find a way to create products or "solutions" that could sell for more, rather than finding products that help developers far more. Too many arbitrary dividing lines between SKU's to tend people torwards the greater purchase, even if you crippled someone in a key area that a lower SKU was to be intended for.
--j
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Message #168092
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I still like JBuilder (for now)
I did not express clearly (or I use the wrong word to express it). What I mean is I can't seem to compile individual file instead of compiling all the files in the project.
Do you mean that if you only make a modification to one java file, eclipse recompiles only that file. Yes, that is called incremental compilation and yes, eclipse will do just that.
In fact, if you use the default setting "Build automatically", you don't even have a "build" button. All builds are done automatically and incrementally almost in realtime.
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Message #257614
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Java Project migration to eclipse
Can anybody suggest how we can actually move a jbuilder java project to eclipse?Will there be any difference in both?
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