Borland announces JBuilder Roadmap; future will be Eclipse-based

Home

News: Borland announces JBuilder Roadmap; future will be Eclipse-based

  1. Borland has announced their technical roadmap for JBuilder. Later this year Borland will ship JBuilder 2006 which will add shared code and shared debugging features. In the first half of 2006, JBuilder will ship a new version, code-named "Peloton", which will be completely Eclipse-based and add better dependency analysis features.

    The shared code and debugging will allow developers in different locations to participate in shared coding and debugging, as though they were sitting down together in the same room.

    The Eclipse news follows up from their February announcement of joining the Eclipse board and their intention to re-build their entire application life cycle management product suite on top of Eclipse. Borland sees Eclipse as an integration framework upon which they will be building JBuilder as well as their other products. By leveraging Eclipse, they can realize the cost savings of not having to worry about maintaining IDE functionality, and integration with other Borland tools, as well as gaining a larger audiece via Eclipse and benefitting from the large ecosystem of Eclipse tools.

    According to Rob Cheng, director of developer solutions at Borland, the major new addition planned for Peloton will be a dependency analysis feature. It will be able to understand the dependencies between different artifacts in the project, such as the link between JSP's and struts controllers, EJB's and the persistence tier, without the user needing to configure these explicitly or switch views. Debugging will be improved - stepping into different tiers will be easier without end users needing to manually set additional breakpoints.

    Code-name Peloton comes from a cycling metaphor, which is used to describe a group of cyclists who can ride faster together than they could individually, reflecting Borland's emphasis on team collabortation features in JBuilder.

    Borland has not announced any pricing information, but they are looking into offering a separate 'distribution' of JBuilder on Eclipse all integrated to make it easy for corporate clients to deploy.

    Borland chose Eclipse over Netbeans after watching industry momentum and listening to customers who think Eclipse will be their next major platform.

    When asked about what their differentiators for JBuilder-Eclipse over Websphere Studio will be, Borland responded that WS Studio is focused on Websphere, whereas JBuilder supports multiple application server platforms.

    Luis De La Rosa in his 2005 predictions suggested that Eclipse will become the Java community's answer to Visual Studio.NET, as a de facto IDE; this being a good thing for the Java community, as Eclipse will help build a market/ecosystem for development tools much like Visual Basic, which is the real goal that Sun wants to reach: 10 million developers using Java.

    Borland's decision to join IBM in basing their IDE on Eclipse is certainly bringing us closer to that prediction! What do you think?

    Threaded Messages (46)

  2. I'm a long-time user of Borland tools (including JBuilder), and I see the JBuilder announcement as an example of Borland bowing to reality. I've been wondering for a long time why this hasn't happened yet. I imagine it was a difficult decision, given their history -- it's strange for the company that invented the IDE to base core IDE features on someone else's platform. But the ability to adapt is what has kept Borland around for so long. I'm looking forward to seeing JBuilder embrace the Eclipse eco-system, as well as the ability to use Eclipse plug-ins inside of JBuilder.

    Kito D. Mann
    Author, JavaServer Faces in Action
    http://www.JSFCentral.com - JSF FAQ, news, and info

    Are you using JSF in a project? Send your story to trenches at jsfcentral dot com, and you could get your story published and win a free copy of JavaServer Faces in Action!
  3. I'm a long-time user of Borland tools (including JBuilder), and I see the JBuilder announcement as an example of Borland bowing to reality. I've been wondering for a long time why this hasn't happened yet. I imagine it was a difficult decision, given their history -- it's strange for the company that invented the IDE to base core IDE features on someone else's platform. But the ability to adapt is what has kept Borland around for so long ...

    I am delighted that Borland have decided to follow Eclipse's
    innovations. I too was a Borland user, and can foundly remember my daily battles with Turbo Pascal and Turbo C/C++, which beat out out Microsoft tools on i386.

    Today I am using Eclipse 3.0.2 for my commercial contracting. This can only mean bigger and better future innovations for the entire Eclipse community. Borland, welcome back to the "Doggpound"! Worf! worf! worf!

    Peter Pilgrim
  4. Fw: Borland Users[ Go to top ]

    I too was especially a JBuilder user of the earliest days. I have introduced JBuilder into several projects replacing other tools such as VisualCafe.

    Compared to some of those the real 2-way functionality in JBuilder was a great innovation and ease compared to GB's of "object cache" and similar overhead. That is one of the drawbacks for IntelliJ also, since it requires caching everywhere (although it is highly appreciated among lots of of developers and I found some of its GUI power also impressive even using Swing)

    Except for the (Swing) GUI builders (where JBuilder, NetBeans or IntelliJ have ruled so far) Eclipse has been very successful as a follow-up and replacement in most other fields.
    True refactoring and consistant renaming of objects across entire projects was a thing, most other tools have only introduced a lot later.

    Lets hope, Borland can bring some innovations into the Eclipse community while profiting from a REAL community solution on the "lower end" of their user base. At least they do not need to complicate their life there anymore with "crippled" features and often buggy licensing just to provide basic features to a wide base of users.

    This was one of the reasons I even managed to get Eclipse into a project and company that was a decicated JBuilder client for years (a major bank) as the license code simply failed to unlock our required products and Eclipse was there and ready to use within minutes ;-)
  5. The way to go![ Go to top ]

    Congrats for Borland to follow this path. This will hopefully also bring us a better Open Source Eclipse, since Borland's engineers will surely work on the core Eclipse as well.

    SAP, IBM, Borland, BEA, etc. etc. support Eclipse now. When will we see that NetBeans (Sun), IntelliJ will also go for the same path?

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
    EJOSA - OpenUSS
  6. Am I the only one horrified at how the choice to support Eclipse was made? It wasn't "it was the best, technically" based on this article - it was just a lemminglike response to a bunch of developers preferring a free product.
  7. Rarely are decisions made solely on technical merit, market and business factors are important considerations as well and from a business perspective building on top of Eclipse probably saves Borland a significant amount of money since they don't need to build and maintain the basic IDE feature set. Given that the commercial Java IDE is going down the crapper due to the free products like Eclipse and Netbeans anyways, it was probably a good idea in terms of stemming loses and trying to build additional market share on a popular product. The days of shops spending $2K plus on an IDE for developers is long gone, Borland's decision reflects the market reality IMHO.
  8. Am I the only one horrified at how the choice to support Eclipse was made? It wasn't "it was the best, technically" based on this article - it was just a lemminglike response to a bunch of developers preferring a free product.

    From the information presented, it looks like they made the right choice (note to Floyd: the sourcing in this article is a little unclear. Is this info all from interviews you personally conducted?).

    It would not be practical for JBuilder to base their IDE on the platform that is "best, technically". The upfront licensing fees would be significant, and then Jetbrains would have Borland over a barrel when it comes time to renew the licensing agreement.

    So they've got to choose an open source platform, and it basically comes down to Eclipse and NetBeans. Does the fact that Eclipse has more users mean it is better technically? No, but it does mean that it has a broader development and support base, and a much wider array of free and commercial plugins that will be able to interoperate with JBuilder's tools, thus increasing the value of the platform. And I have seen zero indication that Netbeans is technically superior enough to negate that sort of advantage.
  9. (note to Floyd: the sourcing in this article is a little unclear. Is this info all from interviews you personally conducted?).
    http://www.borland.com/news/press_releases/2005/05_31_05_press release
  10. Actually, Floyd was on a conference call with Borland, from which this news post was written.
  11. (note to Floyd: the sourcing in this article is a little unclear. Is this info all from interviews you personally conducted?).

    Yes, I conducted the interview with Rob Cheng, that allowed me to get more data than Borland put out in the press release you linked to.

    Floyd
  12. Hello,

    Will a transcript be available of this interview ?

    Regards.
  13. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    It wasn't the best, technically
    </quote>

    Sorry but IMO, Eclipse - with its component architecture - is technically very sophisticated, if not the best...

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
  14. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    No need to apologize. I wasn't making an assertion that Eclipse is NOT the best... I was only wondering why no technical merit was considered or put forth. It just sounds weird.
  15. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Am I the ONLY person who finds Eclipse's interface totally counter-intuitive? When I fire it up, I spend 5 mins blankly looking at the screen trying to figure what I'm supposed to do next. I've had it installed on several machines for a long time, but I've never been able to get comfortable with it. I've coded using Vi, Visual Cafe, Visual Studio, JBuilder, Netbeans and the old Visual Age without any problems. JBuilder was my favourite commercial IDE, so I guess I will need to give IntelliJ a shot.
  16. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Am I the ONLY person who finds Eclipse's interface totally counter-intuitive? When I fire it up, I spend 5 mins blankly looking at the screen trying to figure what I'm supposed to do next. I've had it installed on several machines for a long time, but I've never been able to get comfortable with it. I've coded using Vi, Visual Cafe, Visual Studio, JBuilder, Netbeans and the old Visual Age without any problems. JBuilder was my favourite commercial IDE, so I guess I will need to give IntelliJ a shot.

    +1 I perfer IDEA or NetBeans for this reason.

    I think the Eclipse is an incredible product, but as a J2EE developer I find IDEA and NetBeans to be less clutered and more to the point of J2EE development. I think that part of the problem is that many of the Eclipse plugins integrate with the IDE in different ways. This is probably a benefit if your goal is to make Eclipse and ActionScript/C++/Java/.NET development tool, but for just J2EE development it is not as streamlined and straightforward as some of the other IDE's.

    I love the concept of Eclipse, and hope that the support of the Borland people also bring some more order and unification to the J2EE features of Eclipse.
  17. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Am I the ONLY person who finds Eclipse's interface totally counter-intuitive? When I fire it up, I spend 5 mins blankly looking at the screen trying to figure what I'm supposed to do next.

    What a shame ! Why people who have 5 minutes to blankly stare at screen, never spend those minutes to read simple Getting Started document ? :))
  18. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Excellent point!
  19. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    What a shame ! Why people who have 5 minutes to blankly stare at screen, never spend those minutes to read simple Getting Started document ? :))
    So are you saying that Eclipse is counter-intuitive to everyone, and that I need to learn how to use it? I've never needed to learn any other editor/IDE, with the exception of Vi ofcourse. I'm not trying to start a flame war here - I hear people raving about Eclipse, how technically strong it's design is and how visually appealing it looks, and I agree on all counts. But everytime I try to code in Eclipse I end up going back to JBuilder or Netbeans, or even a plain text editor with Ant build scripts.
  20. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    But everytime I try to code in Eclipse I end up going back to JBuilder or Netbeans, or even a plain text editor with Ant build scripts.
    Am I the only one here who after having problems with new IDE, language, or tool, goes to its MANUAL, not back to old tool ? :))
  21. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Am I the only one here who after having problems with new IDE, language, or tool, goes to its MANUAL, not back to old tool ? :))

    Why should I spent a lot of time to understand how to do any trivial thing if I can use tool with which I should not spent any time because of it's intuitiveness? Why I'm forced to read manuals if I can just choose another product? My time is my money! Dou you think I'll spent my time in the situation when I can avoid it? Eclipse IDE is not so important for me!
  22. Children of Visual Studio[ Go to top ]

    Any IDE or any interface with more than a single button requires learning process. I don't care if it's Java, .NET or PHP. If you worth your money you do it fast, and first thing you learn is to RTFM. I tried every single Java IDE out there and I do like Eclipse because everyone writes plugins these days for it. So it's good common denominator and I learn to go around its shortcomings
  23. Why should I spent a lot of time to understand how to do any trivial thing if I can use tool with which I should not spent any time because of it's intuitiveness? Why I'm forced to read manuals if I can just choose another product?

    What do you call intuitive tool ?
    Is it because new text editor shows a letter on the screen when you type that letter on keyboard ?
    Yes that is intuitivness. Because things you expect to happen, happen the way you expect them :))
    Your intuition is based on your education and your past experience. Which means if you have no education and no past experience, then you will have no intuition whatsoever.

    Of course building tools so users can use their past experiense is a clever thing. That makes them feel at home, feel smart, feel "intuitive".
    The problem here lies on NEW FEATURES. You cannot possibly discover new feature by intuition, because your past experience and past education does not have any clue about that new feature.
    So if you are using your lovely IDEA only based on your intuition, then you are not doing justice to it. There's lot of stuff in it you can learn and use only reading its manual.

    Eclipse IDE definitely may look non intuitive, alien to many of the users of other IDEs. But it does not mean it is bad (or good). It just means the way of working Eclipse gives you, have no matching in your past experience.

    And ditching the tool only because you do not recognise its face, is not clever.
    But it is your choice. I prefer to read the manual, because I know, relying on my past experience will bring me nowhere.
  24. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Why should they read a simple getting started document when other IDEs manage to allow them to start coding immediately?
  25. The main idea of Eclipse UI is using the *multi-perpectives* concept.

    -> "One Java project can have many perspectives (Code, Debug, Team, etc.)".
     
    After you understand this concept once you will not want to miss it anymore. This concept is comparable with e.g. Winword. There you have:

    -> "One document with many perspectives (Print, Web, Design, Structure, etc.)".

    Or just like UML 4+1 perspectives. Multiperspectivity is a very good concept since you can have your own perspectives for one *thing*, as you know that all of us have our own subjective views. In TSS this would be:

    -> "One topic with many perspectives and views from all the users of TSS".

    Once you "get" this concept, you won't miss it anymore ;-)

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
  26. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Ah, the calm discussion of politics, religion or IDEs!
  27. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Why should they read a simple getting started document when other IDEs manage to allow them to start coding immediately?

    Why would I read any books at all, if with MS Visual Studio Wizard i can create complete database driven application with all database tables, nice GUI screens, editable grigs, searches, sorting, CRUD without even reading a manual ?

    :))

    Joseph, here's a hint for you. That intuitive IDE of yours, that you are using. Do youserlf a favor. Read its manual. You will find lot's of gems in it, that your "intuition" did not grasp.
    Especially IntelliJ IDEA. There's lot's of cool and powerfull stuff in it that you will never discover without manual.
  28. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Slow down a touch, Mr. Verdi. I'm not saying which IDE is "my IDE" - for a few reasons, not the least of which is the fact that I use most IDEs, including Eclipse, Netbeans, JBuilder, IDEA, JDeveloper, and pretty much everything else I can get my hands on. I prefer certain ones over others, especially for different tasks.

    I don't have a disdain for Eclipse, although there are some aspects I do find distasteful, and I think I've been pretty open about what those points are. I'm well aware of Eclipse' market position, and while its place in the industry is hard to debate, the reasons it's there.... those concern me.
  29. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    which is the fact that I use most IDEs, including Eclipse, Netbeans, JBuilder, IDEA, JDeveloper, and pretty much everything else I can get my hands on.

    You've got to be kidding, right ? :))
    I mean I used or played, tried many IDEs over the years, including all you listed.
    But i never used all those IDEs at the same time.
    Right now i'm working with IDEA and Eclipse.
    And the only reason i'm using IDEA, is because I'm lazy to port 1 existing project to Eclipse. (No need).
  30. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    No, I'm not kidding. I'm an editor; it'd be stupid of me not to keep up with the capabilities of the IDEs in common use by those who use resources I'm responsible for.
  31. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Am I the ONLY person who finds Eclipse's interface totally counter-intuitive? When I fire it up, I spend 5 mins blankly looking at the screen trying to figure what I'm supposed to do next.
    What a shame ! Why people who have 5 minutes to blankly stare at screen, never spend those minutes to read simple Getting Started document ? :))

    Why should the typical developer need to have a Getting Started document? The point of good design is that a user interface should be easy and obvious. IMHO the perspective-based approach of Eclipse is neither.
  32. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    You are in good company; it's just that all the noise comes from the Eclipse drones.

    Don't stop using JBuilder; the success of Eclipse is just an indication of the state of the masses out there. If you did a code review on all these Eclipse projects, I'm sure you'll see, it has nothing to do with technology.

    Also, see how Struts is popular and Cocoon is deemed too difficult to use, a lot more examples out there to demonstrate, that computer science applied sense is rare in US projects.
  33. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Don't stop using JBuilder

    Oh he would like very much.
    But the thing is, in a year using JBuilder would mean...using Eclipse :))
  34. You are in good company; it's just that all the noise comes from the Eclipse drones. Don't stop using JBuilder; the success of Eclipse is just an indication of the state of the masses out there.

    Where is this condescending attitude coming from? I don't see how you are any different from those masses that you look down on. Both of you do not care what the actual merits of the tool are; typical fanboy behavior. The only difference I see is that (you think) they are following like sheep without caring whether the tool is actually any good, while you just like to play the clueless reactionary who will diss the useful new tool because he's upset that it's better than his accustomed toolset.
    If you did a code review on all these Eclipse projects, I'm sure you'll see, it has nothing to do with technology. Also, see how Struts is popular and Cocoon is deemed too difficult to use, a lot more examples out there to demonstrate, that computer science applied sense is rare in US projects.
    Have you actually looked at actual Eclipse code? I've been looking at it since Eclipse 0.9 went online a few years ago. I've found it to be almost always sensible, usually high quality and sometimes inpiring (core resource framework comes to mind). I don't care if you are ignorant, but somehow you managed to piss me off by flaunting the fact.

    And yes, Cocoon *is* more difficult to use. Not because it is a worse framework for web development but because its conceptual weight is larger than Struts; you need to learn quite a few new concepts than you need in Struts to be as productive. You will most likely end up with a better application, but the learning curve is higher. That's not particularly a big minus for Cocoon depending on you project, it's just the way things are: you get more but you invest more.
  35. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    Also, see how Struts is popular and Cocoon is deemed too difficult to use, a lot more examples out there to demonstrate, that computer science applied sense is rare in US projects.

    Eclipse SDK is actually handcrafted by Inuit, surrender monkeys and banking gnomes (mostly anyway). Where does the US come in?
  36. Technically the best?[ Go to top ]

    You can use the "Java Browsing" perspective in Eclipse which looks a lot like Visual Age.
     
    Or you could just take notes the next time you "fire" up Eclipse so that in the future you can consult them and avoid having to "spend 5 mins blankly looking at the screen".

    I can't understand why someone would look blankly at a screen for 5 minutes. I'd spend the time trying to learn how to use the product. But that's just me...maybe I'm some kinda super genius who has an amazing intellectual ability that somehow lets me put that 5 minutes to good use.
  37. No, you are not![ Go to top ]

    IMHO, it's interface is highly counter-intuitive.

    Regards,
    Eugene
  38. This time, the attack is not from Microsoft, but from their own royal developers who decide their royalty worth nothing and switch to free products en-mass.

    Can anyone explain how building new features on a free IDE with growing number of powerful, easy-to-use but free plugins is a good business?.
  39. Can anyone explain how building new features on a free IDE with growing number of powerful, easy-to-use but free plugins is a good business?.

    There's lot's of stuff beyound classic IDE capabilities.
    Support of various J2EE servers, commercial JSF or javabeans libraries, UML tools (Together), profilers, Teamwork tools (StarTeam), etc, you get the idea :)
    Putting JBuilder team to work on plugins that extend Eclipse functionality can provide much better results than those halfbaked free plugins with no help, no support.

    For example Hibernate did not have decent visual tools for years, until they put paid programmers into work.
  40. Putting JBuilder team to work on plugins that extend Eclipse functionality can provide much better results than those halfbaked free plugins with no help, no support.For example Hibernate did not have decent visual tools for years, until they put paid programmers into work.

    I'm sure paying programmers for works is good thing ;-) and may produce better products in many situations, but the question is whether those better products worth anything larger than zero. The falling of JBuilder itself clearly gives the answer.
  41. good news for GUI developer ?[ Go to top ]

    This could be a good news for GUI (Swing/SWT) developers.

    JBuilder has the best gui designer for Swing/AWT which is far ahead of Netbeans and the Eclipse(IBM) crap in this area.

    But Borland please dont't use the JBuilder 2005 GUI-Designer version. It is to silly when the 1.5 JVM crash when you open your JFrame with a custom Button on it.

    Maybe I better stay with JBuilderX ,Idea and MDA.

    Eclipse ? nice texteditor not more !!!!
  42. People can make money writing comercial plug-ins. MyEclipse and Together are some of my favorate.
  43. I use JBuilder because it has
    1) drag & drop components
    2) databound components
    3) CRUD builtin

    I could never find ANY of these features in Eclipse.

    I dont care what JBuilder is built upon, as long as it has 1)2) & 3)
  44. too.
  45. eclipse's open framework would make this possible. I use jbuilder before to develop J2EE. but now I only use eclipse. although NetBeans also an open source IDE. but Eclipse is better, probably the best.

    do u think so?
  46. Code-name Peloton comes from a cycling metaphor, which is used to describe a group of cyclists who can ride faster together than they could individually, reflecting Borland's emphasis on team collabortation features in JBuilder.

    Peloton means Fearless in the Finnish language.
  47. Prediction for 2005 ?;-)[ Go to top ]

    No offense to Mr. De La Rosa, but I asked one of the lead developers of JBuilder earlier in 2002 the question Borland finally answered now !;-)

    If they will exchange their never really accepted "Framework" and plugin system of the IDE and the whole (Swing based) infrastructure with Eclipse sooner or later. As Borland was one of the first members of the Eclipse foundation back then I was probably not the only one thinking, but sure one of the first clearly ASKING Borland what their intentions are in this direction...