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Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Marc Fleury has given his notice at Red Hat, resigning from formal management of JBoss. A resignation had been speculated on from the start of his paternity leave, but representatives from Red Hat indicated that Marc had intended to return. There are some potential candidates to replace him, but no official word yet on who.
Marc issued the following statement: I have done what I can to help Red Hat succeed. People need to understand that Open Source is a tsunami that is transforming the software industry in its wake and its inevitability is now well beyond challenge or the force of individual personality. Marc's always been controversial, but that controversy has often been good for Java EE. (Of course, occasionally it hasn't - Marc's probably the first major user of some particularly bilious language from someone of his industry stature.) Along the way, he's also done a good job pushing the industry further along, and his ability to be a lightning rod and a spokesman can easily be appreciated.
We at TSS wish him the best in his future, and will continue to watch developments at JBoss as closely as possible.
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Message #227204
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Hmmmm....Seems that the buyout didn't work quite as well as expected. I wonder if this affects Hibernate, a tool for which I have great fondness.
Credit to Marc for his contributions to the OSS effort. He really helped make OSS a player in the industry.
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Message #227205
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long before...
...There was JBoss, there was JEE, and long after Marc Fleury, there will be JEE. To suggest that Marc's semi-retirement will usher in the death knell for Enterprise Java is comically ignorant. JBoss, Glassfish, and the dozens of other JEE initiatives are bringing choice beyond the stagnant world of WebSphere and WebLogic, as well as Oracle's bloatware. Wishing for the entire Industry's demise makes one look foolish.
I say way to go Marc, you achieved more than most, gone but never forgotten, and most likely to re-appear. JEE is thriving in the space in which you garnered the lion's share of attention: developer ranks looking for influence and a voice. Neither the musings of publicity hacks, nor Red Hat will be able to squelch what JBoss has achieved on your watch. So enjoy retirement, and write a memoir or something to remind us of your past 8 years.
try again, JEE doubters...
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Message #227209
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Bye Marc. So long, JEE. It was fun while it lasted.
JEE is hardly going away because one person goes away.
And furthermore, I doubt this is the last we'll hear of Marc Fleury, he'll be back in some other shape or form, in some other venture sooner rather than later, you can bank on that.
Entrepreneurs don't go away and retire, they move on to the next interesting thing. What that will be and whether it will be a success or failure only time will tell.
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Message #227212
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Life goes on.
Hmmmm....Seems that the buyout didn't work quite as well as expected. I wonder if this affects Hibernate, a tool for which I have great fondness.
The buyout didn't work out for Marc, not JBoss or Hibernate. I doubt JBoss developers are like Mangalores whereby if you remove thier leader they'll loose motivation. Gavin King still seems highly motivated in regards to Seam and Hbernate. Marc Fluery was a figure head who is stepping down. Someone else will fill his shoes. Life goes on.
Ryan-
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Message #227213
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Re: Life goes on.
Buyout worked for Marc very well. He build a startup, sold it for good money, felt satisfied and content for the deal, no motivation left further, so left.
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Message #227217
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Re: long before...
Hats off to Mark for an impressive run.
Douglas, have you ever noticed that you are the only one who touts Glassfish? I've always shrugged it off, but your consistent claims that WebLogic is dead and Glassfish is the second coming has absolutely no basis in reality.
Go to dice.com or any other job site and query the following;
WebLogic: 2,658 hits
JBoss: 1,040 hits
Glassfish: 4 hits
While 1 hit doesn't necessarily = 1 job, it gives a paints a pretty clear picture to me.
Eric
BEA
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Message #227221
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Wishing him the best
Regardless of whatever intentions he had for resigning, the Liferay team wishes Marc Fleury and his family the best.
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Message #227223
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Re: Eric
You can hide behind installed base, but you cannot refute the momentum that JBoss and Glassfish have stolen from WebLogic. It is only a matter of time. Once Jonathan learns that his platform of the future is not Solaris but JEE, and takes WebLogic off the Sun GSO price list, you guys have only Tuxedo maintenance revenue and Aqualogic potential.
I am sure that I have supporters to my thesis that WebLogic is dying on the vine, being eaten away by OSS implementations that are simply better. The run of JBoss is far from over, and is taking all WebLogic Linux installations with it. As I have stated in my blog, without Solaris and Linux, do you guys just optimize for Longhorn?
douglas dooley
http://douglasdooley.blogspot.com/
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Message #227226
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Re: Eric
Speaking not as editor of TSS but in my own behalf, Douglas, I think your estimation of WebLogic's death is highly exaggerated.
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Message #227228
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Re: long before...
Douglas, have you ever noticed that you are the only one who touts Glassfish? I've always shrugged it off, but your consistent claims that WebLogic is dead and Glassfish is the second coming has absolutely no basis in reality.
While I can't say anything about WebLogic, I can say that there's at least one more job opening for Glassfish than those numbers suggest. We're a Glassfish shop (and hiring! :) and quite happy with it.
For what that's worth... :P
Jason Lee, SCJP
http://www.iec-okc.com
http://blogs.steeplesoft.com
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Message #227230
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Re: long before...
...There was JBoss, there was JEE, and long after Marc Fleury, there will be JEE. To suggest that Marc's semi-retirement will usher in the death knell for Enterprise Java is comically ignorant. JBoss, Glassfish, and the dozens of other JEE initiatives are bringing choice beyond the stagnant world of WebSphere and WebLogic, as well as Oracle's bloatware.
It looks like Marc's legacy is in good hands.
Douglas, in case you were not around back then, the death of WebLogic and WebSphere was already predicted (and claimed) by Marc more than six years ago.
And then repeated every year after that.
In the end, it looks like both WebLogic and WebSphere outlived him. How ironic.
At any rate, keep claiming that WebLogic is dead, you will eventually be right.
--
Cedric
http://testng.org
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Message #227232
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Re: long before...
At any rate, keep claiming that WebLogic is dead, you will eventually be right. Of course, by that time, most of the participants in this particular conversation will be dead too....
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Message #227233
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Re: long before...
Cedric :
In the end, it looks like both WebLogic and WebSphere outlived him. How ironic.
At any rate, keep claiming that WebLogic is dead, you will eventually be right.
Alive! It's alive! It's alive!
(extra points if you know where that comes from...)
--geir
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Message #227236
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Re: Eric
I am sure that I have supporters to my thesis that WebLogic is dying on the vine, being eaten away by OSS implementations that are simply better.
Simply put, it's getting harder and harder for large app server vendors to distinguish there products from the OSS ones, particularly for the low lying fruit.
The beauty of commodity app servers is that you get commodity applications using app servers.
Not all applications require all of the high end features, so BEA and IBM are being squeezed out of those departmental markets, especially on less critical applications.
But much like RDBMs are now ubiquitous, so to are application servers. All of the arguments used against RDBMses back in the day are flung againt app servers, but they keep trudging along. Offering more functionality and better performance. EJB 3 making it easier to code with them and the tooling getting better and better.
We're currently considering porting our WLS app over to either JBoss or Glassfish. We've been using Glassfish for some internal apps, and it's working great.
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Message #227240
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
As soon as RH bought JBoss, it was obvious Marc would not last. Very different personality.
If Marc is indeed the visionary he has been playing for years now, he will pick-up that money he got from the deal and move to some agile technology with a future. RoR, Drupal - you name it.
I hope he does. It may end up interesting for the industry.
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Message #227242
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How did we go from Marc F leaving to WebLogic dying?
How did we go from a thread on Marc Fleury leaving (all the best to Marc. I am sure he will be back with a new startup) to arguments over the death of WebLogic?
Dion
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Message #227243
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shutdown.sh after startup.sh
The JBoss has JQuit.
I think it is a fitting tribute to Marc to continue his legacy of forecasting the end of WebLogic. FUD on! FUD on!
Every startup has an exit strategy. He is just following through. Now he can join the ranks of VC listening to someone's cocky pitch just like he gave the last couple years.
I look forward to his next venture.
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Message #227248
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Re: posers
You guys are the main contingency of the WebLogic apologists, i would expect nothing less than a spirited defense of your platform. Unfortunately, it is over and everyone who is willing to invest in anything beyond legacy implementations, is not going to pay attention to WebLogic lip-service to the JEE 5 specification.
I did not suggest WebLogic is dead, only that it is dying. Everyone can see that. It is sad that you defend something that is being relgated to the past, just like Tuxedo. Glassfish is for real, and much more important to Sun than Solaris. If you want to get in to a debate over what company is more relevant: Sun or BEA, I am happy to engage.
Until then, save your musings for the Dev2Dev site, where some people actually care. I am happy talking about the present, where EJB3 has relgated even Spring to irrelevance, thats right, Glassfish has ushered in the next stage of development, live with it...
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Message #227251
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Re: posers
Douglas, with all due respect for your enthusiasm, I think you're writing things off a little quickly. I suppose it's fair to say WebLogic is "dying," in the sense that we all are dying from the moment we're born, and the app server market is and remains competitive.
But it's a little soon (okay, WAY too soon) to write off Spring, WebLogic, J2EE. Java EE is nice; I like it. But even with Java EE, I find myself still using and relying on ancillary libraries like Spring, which integrates with and complements Java EE quite well.
I think you're vastly underselling WebLogic's contribution and participation in the Java EE space; witness Geronimo's JPA implementation, which - if memory serves - is OpenJPA, which is created by ... BEA.
I like Glassfish, certainly. But it's not the second coming for application servers. Your enthusiasm isn't misplaced, but your expression of it... ineffective and badly misinformed.
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Message #227253
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Re: posers
You guys are the main contingency of the WebLogic apologists, i would expect nothing less than a spirited defense of your platform.
You guys are the main contigency of the Java/Glassfish apologist. I would expect nothing less.
Unfortunately, it is over and everyone who is willing to invest in anything beyond legacy implementations, is not going to pay attention to WebLogic lip-service to the JEE 5 specification.
Unfortunately, Java is now legacy and everyone paying attention to Sun lip-service is doomed to failure.
I did not suggest WebLogic is dead, only that it is dying.
I'm not suggesting that Java is dying, I'm suggesting that it's dead.
Everyone can see that. It is sad that you defend something that is being relgated to the past, just like Tuxedo.
It's sad that you defend something like Java that is relegated to the past.
Glassfish is for real, and much more important to Sun than Solaris.
RoR is for real and Sun has announced it's own death by scrambling to GPL v3 everything and hoping that RMS minions will save it.
If you want to get in to a debate over what company is more relevant: Sun or BEA, I am happy to engage.
Sun died when it decided that all its software was worthless and unable to sell it.
Until then, save your musings for the Dev2Dev site, where some people actually care.
Save your Java musings for legacy sites. The COBOL forums are fitting.
I am happy talking about the present, where EJB3 has relgated even Spring to irrelevance, thats right, Glassfish has ushered in the next stage of development, live with it...
Java is the past, RoR is the present and future. Sun and Glassfish have died.
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Message #227254
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Re: posers
Let me guess, Mr. Bank: you thought the PetStore was the end of all of your coding problems, back in the day?
Attracted by shiny things?
There's nothing wrong with Ruby or RoR, but to claim that it's a one-size-fits-all is retarded. Java's not dead by any means, any more than COBOL is.
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Message #227258
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Marc... all the best!!
I think he has done a incredible job.. Not only able to promote OSS so well but the ability for talent sopting... respect.. Anyone went to JavaPolis last year? He was a very funny man!!
I see post regarding galssfish and other app servers.. No one seem to have talked about Geronimo.. Keep a eye on that project is got some interesting concepts..
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Message #227259
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posers
err RoR runs like a dog and look and feel like a kids langague...
Java is dead or not depends on the people using it!! Thats the power of Java.. RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE!!
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Message #227262
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Hmmmm....Seems that the buyout didn't work quite as well as expected.
Think about it:
1) Red Hat over-paid by at least a couple hundred million dollars.
2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock, so he instantly because a very wealthy man.
3) As part of the acquisition, Mark had to sign a piece of paper saying he would stick around for a while or lose a big chunk of his money.
4) Mark didn't actually go to work, and Red Hat paid him to not come to work, which somehow fulfilled the obligation to stick around.
5) Mark can now walk away with a very large bag of cash.
It seems to have worked out exactly as expected.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
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Message #227264
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interpretation
Java is the past, RoR is the present and future. Sun and Glassfish have died.
I bet you were slow in coming up with that one just like all you interpreter guys.
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Message #227265
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Hmmmm....Seems that the buyout didn't work quite as well as expected.
Think about it:
1) Red Hat over-paid by at least a couple hundred million dollars.
2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock, so he instantly because a very wealthy man.
3) As part of the acquisition, Mark had to sign a piece of paper saying he would stick around for a while or lose a big chunk of his money.
4) Mark didn't actually go to work, and Red Hat paid him to not come to work, which somehow fulfilled the obligation to stick around.
5) Mark can now walk away with a very large bag of cash.
It seems to have worked out exactly as expected.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
I'm certainly not suggesting that the guy made a bag of money. Not having any pipeline into the situation I can only speculate that if money was the only concern that perhaps he would have dropped out sooner. I mean, Steve Case made a wad, but still got forced out of AOL.
Hell, I hope I can fail so spectacularly! I would definitely give the man credit for helping to put OSS on the map as credible strategy.
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Message #227269
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Shock, horror - er, so what?
It's not as if we didn't expect this, as Cameron put it, BEA bought JBoss, Marc wasn't needed at BEA but had to stick around for a year and voila. The year's up, Marc's off, who cares, we all knew this would happen didn't we?
This isn't going to effect Java, JBoss or JEE, it's hardly even news-worthy, it's like reporting Bush isn't standing for the next term. What would be news-worthy would be any new ideas or ventures he is associated with (Marc not Bush), is he a one hit wonder or can he do it again?
Marc did change the open source world and for that I congratulate him. I'm not sure I agree with his tactics but on a personal account he's done a damn good job, not to mention making a few other people rich along the way, great job.
Let's move on though, there are still lots of exciting open source and vendor projects and products to write home about, JBoss is still a useful player but just not in the limelight so much, get over it!
-John-
CTO, C24
London, UK
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Message #227270
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Re: interpretation
Java is the past, RoR is the present and future. Sun and Glassfish have died.
I bet you were slow in coming up with that one just like all you interpreter guys.
Are you people really that dense? Hint - look at the blockquote and then look at the response.
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Message #227272
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Hell, I hope I can fail so spectacularly! I would definitely give the man credit for helping to put OSS on the map as credible strategy.
Fail? Who said anything about failing? Please re-read my post. Mark succeeded by every measure that he set out for himself. And a few more.
Trust me, this time the Joker had the last laugh.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: Clustered Caching for Java
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Message #227281
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Hell, I hope I can fail so spectacularly! I would definitely give the man credit for helping to put OSS on the map as credible strategy.
Fail? Who said anything about failing? Please re-read my post. Mark succeeded by every measure that he set out for himself. And a few more.
Trust me, this time the Joker had the last laugh.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: Clustered Caching for Java
I can read. I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Relax.
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Message #227284
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Re: Shock, horror - er, so what?
It's not as if we didn't expect this, BEA bought JBoss, Marc wasn't needed at BEA
Think you're getting your stories mixed up Bruce. RedHat bought JBoss. Douglas Dooley bought BEA. :-)
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Message #227286
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beating a dead horse
I apologize for showing up on this thread again, so it is with reluctance that I state again the relevance of Glassfish (and no, I have no income from Sun, like I used to). It is the standard bearer of JEE5 and without repeating myself, completley relevant.
I don't appreciate Joe's attempt at censor based on style, though I will be turning to Joe soon to launch a company. That is the kind of respect I have for this message board. This is a hard discussion to have as Marc leaves the scene temporarily, good for him.
We have to continue the dialog to bring real solutions to real companies that are engaged in the debate over what is the premier app server, its like choosing a motor vehicle brand, which one you gonna go with?
I, for one, am betting on Sun, any one care to join?
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Message #227290
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Re: Job graphs
Assumuing, of course, you feel that job graphs have any indication on market share.
They probably better reflect how frustrating WebsFear is and so companies feel unable to train their own people up (or retain them) when they have WebsFear on site hence they resort to attempts at recruitment
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Message #227292
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Re: Shock, horror - er, so what?
It's not as if we didn't expect this, BEA bought JBoss, Marc wasn't needed at BEA
Think you're getting your stories mixed up Bruce. RedHat bought JBoss. Douglas Dooley bought BEA. :-)
Sorry, you're totally correct, silly mistake :-)
-John-
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Message #227294
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Re: beating a dead horse.. censorship?
I apologize for showing up on this thread again, so it is with reluctance that I state again the relevance of Glassfish (and no, I have no income from Sun, like I used to). It is the standard bearer of JEE5 and without repeating myself, completely relevant. Well, I can't speak for your apology, because I don't think it was necessary - and I agree with you. Glassfish is relevant, for a lot of reasons. It's the RI; it's the next version of Sun's application server; it's actually quite good.I don't appreciate Joe's attempt at censor based on style, though I will be turning to Joe soon to launch a company. That is the kind of respect I have for this message board. This is a hard discussion to have as Marc leaves the scene temporarily, good for him. Non-appreciation noted - but what? My attempt to censor based on style? Nonsense. I didn't alter your message in any way, nor did I suggest you not make it. I simply disagreed.
I realise that it may look unfair for me to step into conversations, and this is why I tend not to get involved -- it's not my blog, I don't have the right to control what people say or think or express here. But believe me, I'm invested in the industry as well as this site, and I do have opinions - and while I refuse to allow the site to express my opinion, that doesn't mean I have no right to respond. That's all that was. Feel free to disagree with me as much as you like.I, for one, am betting on Sun, any one care to join? I'm interested in why you think this is a zero-sum game, actually.
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Message #227297
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Bla, Bla, Bla
Think about it:
1) Red Hat over-paid by at least a couple hundred million dollars.
2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock, so he instantly because a very wealthy man.
3) As part of the acquisition, Mark had to sign a piece of paper saying he would stick around for a while or lose a big chunk of his money.
4) Mark didn't actually go to work, and Red Hat paid him to not come to work, which somehow fulfilled the obligation to stick around.
5) Mark can now walk away with a very large bag of cash.
It seems to have worked out exactly as expected.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Cameron, can you substantiate your points above (on Marc and his supposedly agreement with Red Hat and on the valuation) or are you just writing stuff on TSS?
You might want to keep writing on topics related to network latency, they have the advantage of being i) interesting and ii) verifiable.
Cheers,
Sacha
JBoss, a division of Red Hat.
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Message #227299
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Obviously wrong
Rick
I typed C# next to that and searched. The figure I got was greater than WebSphere, WebLogic and JBoss all put together.
This is obviously wrong.
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Message #227302
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A bit off topic
A bit off topic, but there have been some very interesting blunders these past years when it comes to J2EE App Servers:
- HP buys Bluestone ($468 million in stock). Long story short, HP Application Server (HPAS) goes open source, thens drifts off into history.
- Oracle's hundreds of Engineers can't get their J2EE app server stable, so they turn to two guys in Europe (Orion app server) and pay a bunch of money to get a copy of their code base to start over again. Oracle's J2EE app server is now a respectable product....then again, so is Orion.
- RedHat buys JBoss for approx $300+ million in stock/cash. There are SO MANY developers that have bits of code in that application that never received one cent. I wasn't even sure how this transaction was even legal. My crystal ball shows legal/lawsuit issues will distract what was/is a great provider of Enterprise Linux.
Just my thoughts.....not meant to offend or bait anyone.....just some observations from a coder in the trenches.
Kind Regards,
Tom
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Message #227306
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Re: Marc Fleury resigns from Red Hat
Cameron,
I think you have some really good points here. Usually with acquisitions, however, the CEO needs to stick around a bit longer per my experience.
Two reasons I think Fleury resigned earlier than expected:
(1) My guess is that RedHat tied Marc's payout to JBoss performance, and I don't think they're getting the results that they want;
(2) Fleury wasn't happy about the new revenue model that RedHat was about to impose on JBoss.
For more on the revenue model info and a past Fleury blog entry that leads me to this conclusion, check out www.jroller.com/page/cooney
Either way, he changed the way people thought about Open Source software and definitely deserves credit for a good run.
My 2 cents. /LC
Lauren Cooney
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Message #227311
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Re: posers
People like Frank make Ruby dubious.....
Like Coplien said: Software Development is before all a social cultural undertaking..... i would'nt want maintain Frank's Programms.
And if his statements reflect the state-of-mind of the ruby culture? Poor Ruby.
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Message #227315
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new generation
Cameron wrote:
1) Red Hat over-paid by at least a couple hundred million dollars.
Anybody that bought us had to over pay by some degree as we were at a crossroads: to either go IPO or get acquired. We were in a position of strength with any potential acquirer. In other words, if the deal didn't knock our sox off, we could walk away.
2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock, so he instantly because a very wealthy man.
This is one of the things I despised about the acquistiion. That certain jealous individuals broadcast BS that Marc got everything and the "real" developers got nothing. All I know is that I have at least 15 friends, including myself, that are brand new millionaires and countless others that have a nice brand new car...
Over the past six years I've known Marc, he has always taken care of those who stayed loyal to him.
Bill
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Message #227319
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Re: posers
People like Frank make Ruby dubious.....
i would'nt want maintain Frank's Programms.
And if his statements reflect the state-of-mind of the ruby culture? Poor Ruby.
Hum...
I think that Franck was ironic with his post... Just to demonstrate that the post he quotes was non-sense, for him.
Cyril
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Message #227323
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Re: new generation
Over the past six years I've known Marc, he has always taken care of those who stayed loyal to him.
Bill
That is probably true. But those who are not "in" are shown a completely different side, as we have all seen over and over again. This "Jekyll and Hyde" mentality was one of the main reasons I left; while he was pampering me and every other "superstar" on the team he was thrashing everyone that was in the way or annoyed him. This is probably, and evidently, very useful for a "businessperson", but it's definitely not a personality quality I would look for in people I would trust.
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Message #227330
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Re: new generation
That is probably true. But those who are not "in" are shown a completely different side, as we have all seen over and over again. This "Jekyll and Hyde" mentality was one of the main reasons I left; while he was pampering me and every other "superstar" on the team he was thrashing everyone that was in the way or annoyed him. This is probably, and evidently, very useful for a "businessperson", but it's definitely not a personality quality I would look for in people I would trust.
Come on now get real, he's hardly likely to divide up his shares to everyone that worked there just because you worked hard. The people that take the risk are the people that start things or the ones who remain through think and thin on no salary from the early days. It's the people like (and I hate to say it) Marc, but more recently Ross Mason, Rod Johnson, Cameron Purdy etc. who started their businesses from nothing. These are the people who (hopefully) own a large chunk of the equity who deserve every penny when it's sold. They are also however the ones who will lose their houses and wives etc. when it all goes pear-shaped.
I'm speaking generically here, I know Cameron has probably donated everything to charity already because he's such a nice guy and Ross isn't married (yet).
Marc had to run a business, once you've got over the initial start up it's just a regular business, he no doubt put a lot of money into the early JBoss and rightfully took a lot out. From what I hear most of the core "superstars" made some good money out of it because they got in early while there was still a big risk to it working or not but anyone who joined later is hardly likely to have made anything exciting out of it.
If you want to make money then either think up an interesting sellable idea and execute it or if you've already got money invest in someone else's idea, it's as simple as that.
Sadly for most of us, Marc and Bill etc. deserved every penny they got, they took the risk, it paid out, they got lots of money.
-John-
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Message #227333
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Re: glassfish
The advocacy on WebLogic vs. Glassfish is unbearable. An Analysis based on job requests vs. an assertion when WL will be dead!? Come on guys, this is more than embarrassing.
WL won't be dead for a long and Glassfish definitely has some momentum. And I appreciate both of it. In the end a fair competition is best for all of us (vendors, customers, developers & end users).
Armin Wallrab, Sun Microsystems, Germany
PS: Spring isn't dead or irrelevant either. For Spring support in Glassfish see http://blogs.sun.com/theaquarium/entry/good_buzz_about_spring_support
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Message #227334
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Re: new generation
Come on now get real, he's hardly likely to divide up his shares to everyone that worked there just because you worked hard.
And if you read what I wrote again I hope you'll see that I didn't suggest this either. I was talking about something completely different.
The people that take the risk are the people that start things or the ones who remain through think and thin on no salary from the early days. It's the people like (and I hate to say it) Marc, but more recently Ross Mason, Rod Johnson, Cameron Purdy etc. who started their businesses from nothing.
Completely agree!
If you want to make money then either think up an interesting sellable idea and execute it or if you've already got money invest in someone else's idea, it's as simple as that.
Again, agree entirely.
Sadly for most of us, Marc and Bill etc. deserved every penny they got, they took the risk, it paid out, they got lots of money.
-John-
Yup, and I'm not saying otherwise.
Again, re-read what I wrote. I don't want any of that money for myself, and since I haven't been involved in JBoss Inc. at all (thank god) it would be really strange for me to claim any of it.
Well, unless they want to offer it so I'll stop mentioning the detail that the "JBoss" trademark they have is invalid. But other than that they can keep it all :-)
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Message #227337
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Re: Marc... all the best!!
Keep a eye on that project is got some interesting concepts..
thats british for crap
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Message #227338
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Re: new generation
someone else's idea, it's as simple as that.
Sadly for most of us, Marc and Bill etc. deserved every penny they got, they took the risk, it paid out, they got lots of money.
-John-
But what about ME!! I had to read about it! Isn't that worth something?
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Message #227340
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Re: worth something
But what about ME!! I had to read about it! Isn't that worth something?
I've got a trademark on JBollocks. Isn't that worth something ?
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Message #227342
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Re: Obviously wrong
Rick
I typed C# next to that and searched. The figure I got was greater than WebSphere, WebLogic and JBoss all put together.
This is obviously wrong.
You can't compare C# to WebSphere et al. Try comparing C# to Java. It has to be apples to apples (or Apples to PCs as the case may be). The last time I checked Java was still ahead.
Also Job graphs always lag behind current trends by six months or so. Technology adoption happens before you start hiring people with those skills, but even so after a while you can tell if something is going to take off or not by the amount of job opennings.
I see technology adoption as follows: 1) the hype phase starts, 2) the true believers and early adoptors start using the technology, 3) then if it truly succeeds in about six months you see some serious adoption with job growth for said skills, 4) if it truly, truly succeeds in 1.5 years it has steady growth. I think most over-hyped technologies end up being a flash in the pan. There are a lot of frameworks out there that will never make it to step 4. Yet you still hear the same hype year after year. It does not mean that they are not good technologies and frameworks, it just means that they missed their mark and will never take off.
JBoss is well beyond step 4. At this point one has to wonder if it is not on the last half of its lifecycle (or is it in the middle). There seems to be a lot going on over at Jboss.com so I imagine they have quite a bit of life left in them. Everything comes to an end at some point (or does it... there is still a market for COBOL programmers after all).
<img src="http://www.indeed.com/trendgraph/jobgraph.png?q=C%23%2C+JavaScript%2C+Python%2C+Java%2C+Ruby%2C+Perl"/>
http://www.indeed.com/trendgraph/jobgraph.png?q=C%23%2C+JavaScript%2C+Python%2C+Java%2C+Ruby%2C+Perl
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Message #227343
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Re: spring is using JAX
Thanks for the link, I had seen it Armin, and feel a bit slighted by your Ottinger-like editorial comment for not pointing out trends that are obvious to most who have followed OSS JEE. The link does correctly state that Spring can integrate via JAX, but isn't JAX custom made for legacy integration?...
Competition is good for customers, thats what they teach us in school throughout the Western world, but when the price is already free, what is there to compete on in app servers? I would say standard implementations, and WebLogic and WebSphere have not exactly been the easiest port off of, especially if you are using full Enterprise Java. Therefore, I am pointing out that many customers are moving away from proprietary implementations to JBoss, Glassfish, and the like...
Where is the controversy, its reality, and job boards do not accurately depict the extent of this transformation or conversion. I will be the last to denigrate the efforts of the Glassfish team, which i suspect you are one, so no offense, but i get bugged when people come on and limit conversation on business issues that affect developer viability, such as whether if you learn Glassfish deployment, you will not have a job...
try again, Eric...
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Message #227344
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Re: good article
Darryl Taft's article in E-Week.
Great article, one thing that kept going through my mind was what a bitter soul Mr. Dain Sundstrom is. I almost feel bad for him...well, almost.
The Jackie Robinson of Open Source?
I prefer what Rod Johnson was quoted as saying... You have to read the article to see what Rod said... I won't quote a quote.
The only time I met Marc Fluery was in Las Vegas at TSSS. I had four wet children returing from the pool at the Venetian (or was it Ceasars Palace... the years seem to blend). We shared an elevator. We exchanged hellos. I can't say much about a person I don't know. He seemed pleasant enough. Then again, I've met Hani and he seemed like a super nice guy in person.
I think Marc made Open Source software more main stream in the corporate world. I am not sure that he was the only cause. He sure helped out a lot.
I actually think Craig McClanahan and Struts (like it or hate it), Tomcat and Ant (and later Gavin King with Hibernate) had more impact on people using Open Source in the corporate world than JBoss AS. Perhaps it was inevitable.
Marc showed that one could make money and do Open Source development (I guess).
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Message #227347
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Risk and Reward
The people that take the risk are the people that start things or the ones who remain through think and thin on no salary from the early days. It's the people like (and I hate to say it) Marc, but more recently Ross Mason, Rod Johnson, Cameron Purdy etc. who started their businesses from nothing.
It is often the successes of companies like JBoss that inspire yet another generation of entrepreneurs (a.k.a. "fools") to try their luck. That, in and of itself, is a long-term investment in our industry.
They are also however the ones who will lose their houses and wives etc. when it all goes pear-shaped.
Trust me, even when things are going well it's pretty hard to hold on to some of those ;-)
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
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Message #227353
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He was a jerk
Marc was a jerk. He was very unprofessional to people on the JBoss forum. He suckered developers into writing code for free and then walked away (sold out) with a few hundred million dollars. Some of those unhappey developers have posted messages on TSS before. I could never believe why anyone ever followed some jerk because he quoted a few lines for the movie The Matrix.
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Message #227355
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Joker laughs last
Anybody that bought us had to over pay by some degree as we were at a crossroads: to either go IPO or get acquired.
There's a saying: "A company is worth what someone is willing to pay for it." And there is certainly nothing wrong with good timing and/or a little luck. You did well.
This is one of the things I despised about the acquistiion. That certain jealous individuals broadcast BS that Marc got everything and the "real" developers got nothing.
Two problems with your statement:
1. I have not personally seen any claims that "the "real" developers got nothing", although undoubtably some contributors saw nothing. Generally speaking, in a debate, you should attempt to create straw men that are obviously made from straw.
2. By using the concept of jeaslousy as the basis of your argument, you clearly create an illusion of narcissism, which in turn undermines your argument. (Rickard would be glad to explain it to you, if he weren't so busy being jealous. ;-)
All I know is that I have at least 15 friends, including myself, that are brand new millionaires and countless others that have a nice brand new car...
For the record, a 0.003 ownership share would have made those employees into "brand new millionaires".
Nonetheless, a sincere congratulations! I think that this is a great outcome, and helps to contribute to the long term impact that the JBoss success will have on the industry, particularly in its ability to inspire new entrepreneurs, and convince bright developers to take some risk to go work for them.
Once again, for the record, my previous comments were not meant to diminish your success, but rather to point out that the Joker got the last laugh.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
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Message #227358
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Re: He was a jerk
Marc was a jerk. He was very unprofessional to people on the JBoss forum. He suckered developers into writing code for free and then walked away (sold out) with a few hundred million dollars. Some of those unhappey developers have posted messages on TSS before. I could never believe why anyone ever followed some jerk because he quoted a few lines for the movie The Matrix.
I don't think he was the most ethical person I've come across but then he was French and that explains a lot. Who is the jerk here? The guy who walked away with a tonne of money or the suckers who were stupid enough to code for free. There's nothing free in this life, perhaps next time they'll be a little wiser and ask for money.
Any decent coder can get paid for their work, the ones who earn enough can afford to program in their own time for free and won't moan when they don't get paid. It's perhaps the ones who are so bad at coding that can't get real jobs and honestly thought working for free would lead to free money. - Suckers? Definitely.
-John-
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Message #227359
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Re: Joker laughs last
2. By using the concept of jeaslousy as the basis of your argument, you clearly create an illusion of narcissism, which in turn undermines your argument. (Rickard would be glad to explain it to you, if he weren't so busy being jealous. ;-)
Now that is an interesting observation. So, if I understood you correctly, are you suggesting that perhaps an attempt to project a feeling of jealousy on an imagined counterpart, the so-called "certain jealous individuals", could possibly be a way to sustain and rationalize a narcissistic inflated view of the self, which would then be caused by a false sense of self-importance that is ultimately used to hide a mostly subconscious lack of self-esteem, as is the usual cause of narcissistic traits? If so, then that is an interesting thought.
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Message #227360
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Re: He was a jerk
I don't think he was the most ethical person I've come across but then he was French and that explains a lot.
I'll ascribe the absence of a smiley to the expression of British humor, and if I'm wrong, I will soon be emailing you a 100 meg binary file, just so you can feel comforted in your prejudice.
--
Cedric
http://testng.org
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Message #227363
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Re: Joker laughs last
Cameron
Anybody that bought us had to over pay by some degree as we were at a crossroads: to either go IPO or get acquired.
There's a saying: "A company is worth what someone is willing to pay for it." And there is certainly nothing wrong with good timing and/or a little luck. You did well.
The reaction of Oracle and MS to the acquisition was a pretty fare indicator, IMO, of the value of the acquisition.
This is one of the things I despised about the acquistiion. That certain jealous individuals broadcast BS that Marc got everything and the "real" developers got nothing.
Two problems with your statement:
1. I have not personally seen any claims that "the "real" developers got nothing",
Your own words "2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock..." Sounds pretty close to a claim as any. This is what I dislike about you Purdy. Your tone and style is so similar to slimeballs like Bill O'Reilly, it sickens me. I'll take a Marc Fleury style over your "No Spin Zone" style any day.
Here's another claim, BTW.
Anyways, who got what is a matter of public record anyways.
although undoubtably some contributors saw nothing.
For most of those developers that saw nothing, it was their own choice.
It boils down to my original point in that Marc rewarded as deserved.
Bill
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Message #227366
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Re: He was a jerk
I'll ascribe the absence of a smiley to the expression of British humor, and if I'm wrong, I will soon be emailing you a 100 meg binary file, just so you can feel comforted in your prejudice.
--
Cedric
Oui, je suis désole, il a manqué le "smiley". Entre les rosbif et les grenouilles je ponce qu'on se comprends bien non? Marc étais comme-même un cas spécial.
The shields are at full strength captain, she should be able to take a 100 meg binary file, even a French one :-)
-John-
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Message #227368
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Re: Joker laughs last
This is what I dislike about you Purdy. Your tone and style is so similar to slimeballs like Bill O'Reilly, it sickens me. I'll take a Marc Fleury style over your "No Spin Zone" style any day.
And there was me thinking Cameron was actually being nice to Marc, good to see that charm hasn't died at JBoss. It appears Bill's being a bit of a berk*.
*berk is a well known word in Cockney, well known in London that is.
-John-
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Message #227373
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All for one!
I've blogged at length on my thoughts on Marc leaving.
It is great that JBoss was a success and Marcs efforts were certainly are large part in that success. It is also great that many of the developers were rewarded as they so often are not!
But the problem with this OS fairy tale is that the distribution of reward was simply not fair or balanced.
In the early years, Marc was just one among many and he risked no more than many others who put >100% effort into JBoss. Many of these early contributors are now under rewarded, yet they helped take JBoss from a husband and wife show (literally in their parents garage) to a serious services company with multi million dollar turn over - all for no salary and on the promise of a fair share.
[... snip ...]
The OS story of JBoss story is about how the many created something for the benefit of all. Unfortunately the business story of JBoss is about how the many were exploited for the benefit of one. It didn't have to be that way.
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Message #227375
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Re: All for one!
For me he is a marketing genius and a show man. He did one fart and was more effective than Cameron stamping each and every of his TSS replies with his signature for the last 4 years.
-- Andreas
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Message #227377
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Re: All for one!
Andreas, you're talent is wasted in the technology sector. Thanks for the biggest laugh I have had on TSS to-date.
regards, William
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Message #227378
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... and the winner is...
So, judging by for example the 424B7 filing from 7/26/2006 the five main winners would be:
Matrix: .24%
Marc Fleury: .23%
Daniel Fleury: .11%
Scott Stark: .07%
Nathalie Fleury: .07%
The Fleury family is to be congratulated it seems, although just as interesting is that the claims of 50% ownership by Marc are greatly exaggerated. The Matrix had more to gain from all of this, which is sort of amusing.
Bill himself got .01%, which aint bad. It's certainly good to see that the Chief Architect has received the fair share that he deserves.
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Message #227380
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Re: All for one!
An effective Fart! What could that be? Having poeple running and taking time how long it takes until nobody is around?
Hmmm, don't know......
And since when is engineering about show biz? Ok, Andreas was probably also finding it cool, when Gates jumped around to "I can't get no satisfaction".....
And I tought engineering was about trustworthyness... must be stupid....
-- Christoph
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Message #227383
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Re: ... and the winner is...
So, judging by for example the 424B7 filing from 7/26/2006 the five main winners would be:
Matrix: .24%
Marc Fleury: .23%
Daniel Fleury: .11%
Scott Stark: .07%
Nathalie Fleury: .07%
LOL, I forgot to multiply by 100 :-) Geeez. I guess that explains why I'll never be a millionaire ;-)
Remove the dots in the above list and it's correct. So, the Fleury family got 41%.
Another interesting calculation you can do is to remove the VC's and see who owns the remaining options. The results are then:
Marc Fleury: 36%
Daniel Fleury: 16%
Scott Stark: 11%
Nathalie Fleury: 11%
Sacha Labourey: 4%
So, with this in mind it is definitely incorrect to say that "Marc Fleury got more than 50%". The correct statement would be "The Fleury's got 63% of the employee options".
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Message #227384
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Re: All for one!
And since when is engineering about show biz? Ok, Andreas was probably also finding it cool, when Gates jumped around to "I can't get no satisfaction".....
And I tought engineering was about trustworthyness... must be stupid....
You are certainly not stupid, Christoph, but it seems you are only an engineer. Good engineering is not enough (but required!). You have to sell your stuff. And that's what he did.
-- Andreas
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Message #227386
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Evil Marc vs. the white sheeps
I didn't want to post on that thread, but I've read too many distortions not to react.
First of all: Open Source code vs. Open Source business.
Many people seem to mix both, they are not the same. Red Hat didn't acquire "code", they acquired a company. It seems some people think that because JBoss, Inc. was sold, contributors that weren't employees should receive some money? That's an interesting concept. Would this apply just to JBoss, Inc. or to other companies as well? Should Oracle share some of its Fusion middleware revenues with Bela Ban because their clustering is based on/using JGroups? Should IBM be paying money to the Geronimo, MX4J, httpd and other Apache projects because they sell proprietary products directly based on that IP? Should BEA pay some money to the SUN's WS stack contributors because WL 10 uses the Glassfish WS stack? Should Red Hat be sharing its revenue with Novell because they are both using the same codebase? Should Apple pay the BSD community for leveraging its kernel? Strangely enough, it seems only JBoss, Inc. would somehow be abusing "the community".
If it was "only" about code and not about business, then I guess it would be as easy to just fork JBoss, call it "Elba" for example, and build a successful business model on top of it, right? Oh but wait, that's exactly what Greg and the CDN team did: http://sourceforge.net/projects/elba (with 113 download in its lifetime). Maybe there is something else that is needed to build a successful business, then?
As for the business, it seems some people have short memories. It's in 2002, a few months after JavaOne, that the real business discussion started among the most engaged JBoss contributors (including you Greg - Rickard you were gone for long at that time). What should be our business model? How to structure "this"? While it might seem obvious today, it certainly wasn't a trivial case at that time. If I remember correctly (that is just a stylistic clause, I perfectly remember), Greg was in favor of a business franchise model: multiple independent companies would work as a network under a unique branding umbrella. Marc was against that. At the beginning, I thought each solution had advantages until I realized the franchise model would not scale fast enough and allow us to invest enough in development: we needed to move fast, to grow fast and a strong unified entity was much better than a loosely-coupled network. While Marc hadn't taken yet a decision on what he would do with JBoss Group, LLC (Greg, for your blog, it is "Fleury", not "Fluery"), we organized our first "JBoss Bootcamp" in Atlanta (February 1 and 2). What we didn't know at that time, is that the future CDN team was already in its early birth. As a matter of fact, the "coredevelopers.net" domain name was registered on the 13th of January 2003, 6 months before they finally made their coming out (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=9850). Greg, you should stop twisting reality: your decision had nothing to do with code, art, love or Open Source, what you took is a very basic business decision: you thought doing CDN (and then Elba and Geronimo) would be a better way and would lead to a better pay off. Fair enough. But you might want to stick to your decision now. What striked me at that time is how you never sent us a personal e-mail telling us what you were doing (even if it was at the same time as your public announcement). Instead, we learned about it like everybody, through a public post on the jboss-dev mailing list (http://www.mail-archive.com/jboss-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg36064.html) while we were waiting for you at JavaOne 2003 (you were on the agenda of JBossTwo, do you remember?): That wasn't very classy.
What *followed* was really the *start* of the business adventure: Bob Bickel joining the company (the best decision ever), VC funding in early 2004 (Thanks David for your help), building of the exec team in 2004/2005 (Brad, Rob, etc.) and, obviously, hiring of the new developers and projects. That is the kind of acceleration we needed to be successful. Again: Business Decisions.
One last word on the money aspect. In early 2003, Marc made an "experiment" and decided to give some shares of his LLC company to some contributors (he had pretty much no employees at that time, so it was a way to mimic what traditional companies would do). Some took the shares (Greg, you and your wife did it and made some money through the JBoss/RHT acquisition - good for you), while others stood up like a "Grand Prince" and refused it. Rickard, you are this Grand Prince (http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=18524) and you are now publicly "begging" for some money (some would use the word "extortion attempt" as you are in fact asking form money in exchange for not spreading lies anymore wrt the "JBoss" brand). I think you should stick to your early principles, that's a great thing to do. BTW, if I am not mistaken, Marc contracted you for most if not all of the "Open Source" development work you did on EJBoss/JBoss, do you remember that? You could have worked for BEA (you refused), but took on the JBoss *job*.
Now, if it helps you in your life to paint Marc as "the Evil Marc", that's great, I don't think it is going to change much Marc's life. But maybe you should instead try to think what made Marc succeed in building a team and a business? Maybe a different personality would have failed. Last time I checked, most of the CEOs of the leading tech companies out there (including those having employees frequently posting on TSS) had interesting personalities as well.
Have "fun" on TSS,
Sacha
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Message #227387
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Re: Evil Marc vs. the white sheeps
Thanks for your input Sacha. It is very interesting!
It seems some people think that because JBoss, Inc. was sold, contributors that weren't employees should receive some money?
Do you have any examples of where this is said? I agree with you that that would be strange to ask.
Greg, you should stop twisting reality: your decision had nothing to do with code, art, love or Open Source, what you took is a very basic business decision: you thought doing CDN (and then Elba and Geronimo) would be a better way and would lead to a better pay off. Fair enough.
If I remember correctly, Greg has always said that CDN was indeed a "better way", and has been reasonably clear about what he meant with "better", and the core issue was not "business". His blog entry reflect this as well I think.
But you might want to stick to your decision now. What striked me at that time is how you never sent us a personal e-mail telling us what you were doing (even if it was at the same time as your public announcement). Instead, we learned about it like everybody, through a public post on the jboss-dev mailing list (http://www.mail-archive.com/jboss-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg36064.html) while we were waiting for you at JavaOne 2003 (you were on the agenda of JBossTwo, do you remember?): That wasn't very classy.
This is an interesting way to look at it. If you read Greg's blog post you'll see that part of the problem is the elitistic and manipulative environment in the developer group. That was certainly one of the reasons I left anyway, and judging by Greg's post, the same goes for him. For you then to say that it was not "classy" of him to leave in the way he did is just one more manipulation, another way to essentially blame the victim. And that aint classy, ya know.
But I perfectly accept that you see this differently. That is, after all, the whole point.
What *followed* was really the *start* of the business adventure: Bob Bickel joining the company (the best decision ever), VC funding in early 2004 (Thanks David for your help), building of the exec team in 2004/2005 (Brad, Rob, etc.) and, obviously, hiring of the new developers and projects. That is the kind of acceleration we needed to be successful.
Out of curiousity, which of these brilliant execs were behind the decision to use faked identities to thrash competitors on public forums? Was that part of the genius of Bob? Or was someone else the main factor behind that little "stunt"?
Again: Business Decisions.
One last word on the money aspect. In early 2003, Marc made an "experiment" and decided to give some shares of his LLC company to some contributors (he had pretty much no employees at that time, so it was a way to mimic what traditional companies would do). Some took the shares (Greg, you and your wife did it and made some money through the JBoss/RHT acquisition - good for you)
According to the previously mentioned filings Greg got 268 options. Compared to Marc's 1570702 that sounds more like an excuse to say "Look, we paid Greg, he's getting a part of the action too!!!" more than anything else.
while others stood up like a "Grand Prince" and refused it.
Why I refused it then is clearly stated in the linked thread, and now that all is said and done I am happy that I refused it as you seem to be using these token "gifts" as a way to rationalize your desired perception of "sharing the wealth". Shame on you Sacha.
and you are now publicly "begging" for some money (some would use the word "extortion attempt" as you are in fact asking form money in exchange for not spreading lies anymore wrt the "JBoss" brand).
Not begging, just making a "business" offer. The plain fact of the matter is that the trademark for "JBoss" was filed at a date when the word "JBoss" was already used by myself and others in such a way that it was essentially not possible to trademark it. You can whine all you want, but it doesn't change this basic fact. And if you want me to stop repeating this simple fact you are free to pay me off. Considering your past business methods, which include using this very same JBoss "trademark" to limit competition, that should not be something strange to ask.
BTW, if I am not mistaken, Marc contracted you for most if not all of the "Open Source" development work you did on EJBoss/JBoss, do you remember that? You could have worked for BEA (you refused), but took on the JBoss *job*.
Yup, I sure do remember this, and as I said, thank GOD that I "missed" the "enterprise" you guys started. Otherwise I might have become as egalomaniac as the rest of the bunch.
Now, if it helps you in your life to paint Marc as "the Evil Marc", that's great, I don't think it is going to change much Marc's life.
That we agree on. Nothing can change Marc one iota. That's what happens when you live in a fantasy world bubble. It's just such a pity that he has been able to fool so many others into it, is all. I hope this is the first and last time such a thing is done.
But maybe you should instead try to think what made Marc succeed in building a team and a business?
I know exactly what made Marc succeed. And it has nothing to do with "business".
Maybe a different personality would have failed. Last time I checked, most of the CEOs of the leading tech companies out there (including those having employees frequently posting on TSS) had interesting personalities as well.
Yes, that is "interesting".
And scary. When abnormal becomes normalized it's a sad world to live in.
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Message #227392
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Rickard, Rickard, Rickard...
If I remember correctly, Greg has always said that CDN was indeed a "better way", and has been reasonably clear about what he meant with "better", and the core issue was not "business". His blog entry reflect this as well I think.
Wrong. It was always about business. People can write whatever they want now, but what led to the CDN split was indeed a business disagreement. Look Rickard, maybe the aliens told you otherwise, but I was part of the discussions.
Again, feel free to read CDN's announcement, it is clearly a business one:
http://www.mail-archive.com/jboss-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg36064.html
Out of curiousity, which of these brilliant execs were behind the decision to use faked identities to thrash competitors on public forums? Was that part of the genius of Bob? Or was someone else the main factor behind that little "stunt"?
You are insulting Bob, that the proof you don't know him. BTW, can you insure me you were NOT astroturfing? how? I am always amazed to see how many people that were astroturfing (and were not JBoss employees) quickly disappeared in the woods....
Anyway, the astroturfing thing was indeed a bad thing (for everybody, not just JBoss). Now, you can decide to paint the JBoss employees as bunch of astroturfers but the reality is that this took place when the company had less than 20-30 employees and involved very specific individuals it seems (I never astroturfed for the record - Mr. McCarthy).
When JBoss was acquired, it had ~200 employees, and implying that JBoss=Astroturfers is insulting to them.
You look to me like somebody that wouldn't want to buy a VW car because of what happened during World War II: that probably helps you push your theories, but it isn't really fair to them nor really depicts what JBoss is today.
According to the previously mentioned filings Greg got 268 options. Compared to Marc's 1570702 that sounds more like an excuse to say "Look, we paid Greg, he's getting a part of the action too!!!" more than anything else.
Wrong. Learn how to read public records before making any claim.
Why I refused it then is clearly stated in the linked thread, and now that all is said and done I am happy that I refused it as you seem to be using these token "gifts" as a way to rationalize your desired perception of "sharing the wealth". Shame on you Sacha.
Rickard, Rickard, Rickard... The reason why you refused is still unknown to me as even after re-reading the thread, you just make absurd statements over and over and looked stupid once people asked you to publish the "horrible" share-allocation document that you had received from Marc (it was indeed a very standard document...)
Also, I do not have any desire to rationalize the perception of "sharing the wealth", it is just that you keep arguing that some people made too much money while others didn't: I think it is fair to lay out facts, and not simply spread FUD. FYI, I think it would have been TOTALLY fine if Marc had decided not to grant anything to external contributors in 2003. Even more to you btw: unlike most other contributors, you got paid for the work you did at JBoss.
Not begging, just making a "business" offer. The plain fact of the matter is that the trademark for "JBoss" was filed at a date when the word "JBoss" was already used by myself and others in such a way that it was essentially not possible to trademark it. You can whine all you want, but it doesn't change this basic fact. And if you want me to stop repeating this simple fact you are free to pay me off.
Again, go back to business school, this is plain FUD. You know nothing about when this TM was registered, how TM registration works, etc. That's a bit tiring, but after all, that so you Rickard :)
Considering your past business methods, which include using this very same JBoss "trademark" to limit competition, that should not be something strange to ask.
LOL. Yes, by definition a trademark is a kind of monopoly on the specific usage of a name, you thought you had discovered something here?
Rickard, the truth is that you hate JBoss so much that it leads you to do unhealthy things. For example, in the specific case you refer to above, did you ever tried to get the REAL story? Or did you just take for granted what some random company told you? Did you know, for example, that TM or not TM, we had signed a 26 pages partnership/revenue-sharing contract with this company? Did you ever considered that they might have been in blatant breach of contract? No, I guess not... Rickard, be careful when you accuse companies of unfair practices: you should first try to get the facts straight, your hate of JBoss makes you blind.
Yup, I sure do remember this, and as I said, thank GOD that I "missed" the "enterprise" you guys started. Otherwise I might have become as egalomaniac
That's right Rickard, thanks to this, you don't sound megalomaniac, at all.
BTW, given that you seem objectively and genuinely interested in the topic of ownership-sharing and that you like to discuss these topics in public forums, why don't you give us the cap table of the company for which you are working now? Are you going to ask all IT companies to publish their cap tables and make judgments on it or are you just going to do it for the companies that paid you for coding?
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Message #227390
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Wow...
This is a great thread :) I haven't seen so much flaming going on since the last time I visited the World of Warcraft forums, lol
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Message #227395
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Re: Rickard, Rickard, Rickard...
Thanks again for your input Sacha, it is very enlightening!
You are insulting Bob, that the proof you don't know him. BTW, can you insure me you were NOT astroturfing? how?
You are trying to avoid the issue by random fingerpointing. Interesting strategy, but pretty useless.
I am always amazed to see how many people that were astroturfing (and were not JBoss employees) quickly disappeared in the woods....
Anyway, the astroturfing thing was indeed a bad thing (for everybody, not just JBoss). Now, you can decide to paint the JBoss employees as bunch of astroturfers but the reality is that this took place when the company had less than 20-30 employees and involved very specific individuals it seems (I never astroturfed for the record - Mr. McCarthy).
When JBoss was acquired, it had ~200 employees, and implying that JBoss=Astroturfers is insulting to them.
I think any decent employee working at JBoss would be very much insulted by execs behaving like that. Again, you are trying to avoid the real issue by saying that I do things that I haven't done, e.g. imply that ALL JBoss employees are astroturfers. To be precise the issue is that a number of core execs have been involved in using faked identities to trash competitors, which is not the same as astroturfing.
You look to me like somebody that wouldn't want to buy a VW car because of what happened during World War II: that probably helps you push your theories, but it isn't really fair to them nor really depicts what JBoss is today.
Straw man argument. You are projecting some arbitrary opinion on me and then say you don't like it.
Wrong. Learn how to read public records before making any claim.
Thanks for point this out. Then will you please clarify the error so that there is no confusion on this point. That would be greatly appreciated.
Rickard, Rickard, Rickard... The reason why you refused is still unknown to me as even after re-reading the thread, you just make absurd statements over and over and looked stupid once people asked you to publish the "horrible" share-allocation document that you had received from Marc (it was indeed a very standard document...)
As I said, I we live in different realities you and I. In my world that "standard" document was very manipulatively formulated. In your world it is perfectly normal. We simply have different views of what normal is I guess.
Also, I do not have any desire to rationalize the perception of "sharing the wealth", it is just that you keep arguing that some people made too much money while others didn't: I think it is fair to lay out facts, and not simply spread FUD.
Please, in order for everything to be superclear and nonmisunderstandable, can you point out exactly where I argue that "some people made too much money while others didn't". I am not aware of it, but apparently I have missed something.
FYI, I think it would have been TOTALLY fine if Marc had decided not to grant anything to external contributors in 2003. Even more to you btw: unlike most other contributors, you got paid for the work you did at JBoss.
Yup, considering how this "grant" is being used, and the manipulative document that accompanied this "offer", I would agree with you.
Again, go back to business school, this is plain FUD. You know nothing about when this TM was registered, how TM registration works, etc. That's a bit tiring, but after all, that so you Rickard :)
Yes, I know I am extremely tiresome. I deeply apologize for this. I know it must be very frustrating to not be able to go about ones "business" without having people pointing out the strangeness of the details of this "business".
LOL. Yes, by definition a trademark is a kind of monopoly on the specific usage of a name, you thought you had discovered something here?
That's just it: in this case you have done something rather unique! Most companies register one trademark for the product and one for the services. This makes it possible for me to be a "WebLogic consultant", but it is not possible for me to be a "BEA consultant". Two different trademarks, one for the product and one for the services. The unique aspect of this is that there is ONE trademark for "JBoss" which covers BOTH the product and services. So, technically speaking there is no way for me to say that I am a "JBoss consultant", since you can then claim trademark infringement by referring to the service clause of the trademark. So even though I helped build much of the architecture and code and whatnot, I am legally not allowed to give support for it. Bizarre, isn't it!?
Now, considering your previous namecalling I could of course do it the Prince way and call myself: "consultant for the OpenSource application server commonly known as bleep". But that would be a tad silly.
Rickard, the truth is that you hate JBoss so much that it leads you to do unhealthy things. For example, in the specific case you refer to above, did you ever tried to get the REAL story? Or did you just take for granted what some random company told you? Did you know, for example, that TM or not TM, we had signed a 26 pages partnership/revenue-sharing contract with this company? Did you ever considered that they might have been in blatant breach of contract?
Yes, I am aware of that, and I am also aware of how you pulled off to get that contract signed. Allegedly the punch line you delivered during negotiations was "there is only black and white. There is no gray". That is some seriously scary shit, dude. You really need to get down to earth some day.
No, I guess not... Rickard, be careful when you accuse companies of unfair practices: you should first try to get the facts straight, your hate of JBoss makes you blind.
See, now you are projecting again. I don't "hate" JBoss. I don't hate much of anything in fact. "Hate" is a useless emotion. I think you're just sad.
That's right Rickard, thanks to this, you don't sound megalomaniac, at all.
BTW, given that you seem objectively and genuinely interested in the topic of ownership-sharing and that you like to discuss these topics in public forums, why don't you give us the cap table of the company for which you are working now? Are you going to ask all IT companies to publish their cap tables and make judgments on it or are you just going to do it for the companies that paid you for coding?
LOL, you are just too funny Sacha :-)
And sad. You really believe everything you just wrote, don't you?
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Message #227397
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Re: All for one!
I agree, Andreas.
But, i think, it's also a matter of balance and emphasis. It seems to me that in our engineering realm selling is maybe overemphazised? As a client for softengineering solutions i have more often than not the impression that good engineering is *not* required. Quite contrary to *traditional" engineering discplines, there it's not only required, but granted - otherwise you go to jail....
In this context and also from experiences as a client to JBoss solutions, my experience is that Marc Fleury applicated M$ marketing attitude to open source source market: you are because i am, therefore i define what is good for you, which at least in relation to opensource software, i think, quite the opposite of it's intention?
But now that Marc Fleury is gone, maybe a time of rationality, objectivity and collaboration can enfold in the JBoss Division of Redhat.
Ok, he took the money and had a fart....but maybe after some time we - i am talking from the customers perspective - get the better deal? More engineering ;-)
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Message #227396
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Re: All for one!
For me he is a marketing genius and a show man. He did one fart and was more effective than Cameron stamping each and every of his TSS replies with his signature for the last 4 years.
-- Andreas
Give purdy some credit. At least his signature *has* changed over the years as different buzzwords came and went.
Right now, JBoss is not the open source powerhaus anymore, there are far fewer non-employee contributions made to the source code, this was one of the main jewels in the crown. With the departure of fleury, the downhill trend has already started.
Whats little adrian brock, berkie & starkie going to do now that their master has fled with the dollars? No prizes for guessing! FWIW, the disease called arrogance is rife in the old ranks, RH has to climb a steep hill now.
Hey Rod, stop playing with your johnson and come out now, breath some life into the bloatware we love and call the spring elephant.
Chow.
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Message #227398
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Re: A bit off topic
A bit off topic, but there have been some very interesting blunders these past years when it comes to J2EE App Servers:
- HP buys Bluestone ($468 million in stock). Long story short, HP Application Server (HPAS) goes open source, thens drifts off into history.
I'm not sure this is quite on the money. HPAS was never released as an open source project: the base edition was free. With respect to the 468 million: since HP paid with (at the time, inflated) stock, its not clear to me that they didn't wind up making money in the end based on Bluestone's cash. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a blunder if they actually returned value to shareholders.
Greg
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Message #227400
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Re: He was a jerk
The shields are at full strength captain, she should be able to take a 100 meg binary file, even a French one :-)
Can your shields take a burning Peugeot?
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Message #227404
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JBoss and Fleury's influence on me
The last time I met Marc was at JavaPolis last year. He poured me a beer from the JBoss both in the exhibit hall. Traffic was light so I got to talk to him for a couple of minutes. He struck me as an entrepreneur who looked at what was wrong with Java application server software and improved the world. Entrepreneurs don't live forever doing one thing, they need to fight the good fight, and keep a lot of things going at once. Marc did a good job for himself, and the JBoss investors, and the software industry.
Marc is now in that strange world of the entrepreneur success. He will find himself with Marc Cantor (founder of Macromedia,) Phillippe Khan (Borland,) and Marc Andreesen (Netscape.) These are entrepreneurs with money who may or may not succeed at any other venture.
I credit Marc for leading the definition of professional open source - where a business funds development of a product it gives away for free and then charges for support and training. Marc contributed to other companies ability to raise capital and be recognized as businesses. I'm thinking of SugarCRM, SpikeSource, Medsphere, and others. This had a direct impact on my life. PushToTest is following an "on ramp" strategy - as Marc describes it - and hopefully we will be successful. I blog about this effect at http://www.pushtotest.com/thecohenblog/goingforit.html
I appreciate Marc's efforts and hope him the best.
-Frank Cohen
http://www.pushtotest.com
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Message #227403
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Re: A bit off topic
A bit off topic, but there have been some very interesting blunders these past years when it comes to J2EE App Servers:
- HP buys Bluestone ($468 million in stock). Long story short, HP Application Server (HPAS) goes open source, thens drifts off into history.
I'm not sure this is quite on the money. HPAS was never released as an open source project: the base edition was free. With respect to the 468 million: since HP paid with (at the time, inflated) stock, its not clear to me that they didn't wind up making money in the end based on Bluestone's cash. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a blunder if they actually returned value to shareholders.
Greg
Yeah, I agree. Given we (Bluestone) had a lot of cash in the bank at the time of the acquisition and HP eventually laid off more than the Bluestone people, I believe they were able to write it off as no loss at all.
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Message #227408
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Re: All for one!
Greg,
But the problem with this OS fairy tale is that the distribution of reward was simply not fair or balanced.
Continuing the World of Warcraft like flaming...
Greg, the funny thing is, you found out just how much you and Jetty were worth to JBoss when we booted you out immediately after your CDN stunt. Life went on for JBoss while Jetty fell into obscurity.
Bill
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Message #227409
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Re: posers
I think you're vastly underselling WebLogic's contribution and participation in the Java EE space; witness Geronimo's JPA implementation, which - if memory serves - is OpenJPA, which is created by ... BEA.
Hmm,
I still like to say that OpenJPA is created by Solarmetric.
But, OK, BEA contribution in the Java EE space is important:
no dubt that JDO suppression attempt was for a right cause.
Guido
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Message #227411
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Re: Joker laughs last
1. I have not personally seen any claims that "the "real" developers got nothing"
Your own words "2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock..." Sounds pretty close to a claim as any. This is what I dislike about you Purdy. Your tone and style is so similar to slimeballs like Bill O'Reilly, it sickens me.
Bill, please try to be objective, and appreciate the difference between "most" and "all". For example, George W. Bush got "most" of the votes, but since I did not vote for him, I am personally certain that he did not get "all" the votes. That means that some other candidates received more than "none", and in this case they (in total) received around 49%.
Similarly, having looked up some "public" numbers, and having done some math, I conclude that out of 6.7mm total shares, the VCs owned 2.2mm, and the Fleuries (collectively) owned 2.9mm of the remaining, or 64% of the remaining, or "most" of the remaining. I was incorrect in my assertion that Marc owned "most", since by himself (e.g. not counting his wife), he owned only 38%, which was the "most" of anyone, but that was not the meaning of "most" that I intended to convey.
In any case, you have managed to turn a recognition of his accomplishments into a petty discussion, which makes your "Bill O'Reilly" comment all the more ironic.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
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Message #227412
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Re: All for one!
Greg, the funny thing is, you found out just how much you and Jetty were worth to JBoss when we booted you out immediately after your CDN stunt. Life went on for JBoss while Jetty fell into obscurity.
Bill, you truly gain nothing by putting people down. It simply makes you a bully. Think about it.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol Coherence: The Java Clustered Cache
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Message #227417
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Re: ... and the winner is...
So, judging by for example the 424B7 filing from 7/26/2006 the five main winners would be:
Matrix: .24%
Marc Fleury: .23%
Daniel Fleury: .11%
Scott Stark: .07%
Nathalie Fleury: .07%
LOL, I forgot to multiply by 100 :-) Geeez. I guess that explains why I'll never be a millionaire ;-)
Remove the dots in the above list and it's correct. So, the Fleury family got 41%.
Another interesting calculation you can do is to remove the VC's and see who owns the remaining options. The results are then:
Marc Fleury: 36%
Daniel Fleury: 16%
Scott Stark: 11%
Nathalie Fleury: 11%
Sacha Labourey: 4%
So, with this in mind it is definitely incorrect to say that "Marc Fleury got more than 50%". The correct statement would be "The Fleury's got 63% of the employee options".
Not sure, but your calculations may be a bit off as you probably didn't take into account unvested options. Most of us were not fully vested when the acquisition occured. That being said, the original intent of my post was to kill the notion that Marc got everything and everybody else got screwed. That Marc is this greedy, souless, exploiter of open source developers. Which is simply not true.
Furthermore, I've worked at numerous and received offers from numerous startups at varying points of maturity over the years. Compared to these opportunities, Marc was more than fair with distribution. In fact, because JBoss was self-bootstrapped rather than initially funded by VC's, the founders and employees got a LOT more than they would have in "traditional" startups. Aren't you in a startup Rickard? What is your percentage of the company? The founders? the VCs? How does that compare to JBoss?
Bill
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Message #227419
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Re: ... and the winner is...
Most of us were not fully vested when the acquisition occured.
That's disgusting. Billy has nobody told you that someone of your size is not a pretty sight like that?
Rickards code may suck but at least he knows it. You on the other hand maintain that you're the dogs bollocks despite Hani pointing out the painful facts. I would have thought that coming from one potty mouth to another that it may sink in
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Message #227420
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Re: All for one!
Greg, the funny thing is, you found out just how much you and Jetty were worth to JBoss when we booted you out immediately after your CDN stunt. Life went on for JBoss while Jetty fell into obscurity.
Bill
Yikes. Sore winner. You've made your millions. There's no need to be a jerk.
I use Jetty; we use Jetty on Struts. Jetty makes some innovative use of NIO among other things; their work may not receive all the recognition it deserves from developers just yet, but it will once they try to scale AJAX apps.
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Message #227421
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OSS isn't just about money
Hi Sacha,
Thanks for that very clear explanation !
In my humble opinion, it's sad to see the major aspect of OSS not being been highligted yet... Thanks, you made the difference between biz and code ! I was getting lost in all those figures and bs !!!
The feeling I have from this thread is that you'd better try to create your own biz, and try to make a good deal in the end, instead of contributing to a common effort that you'll never get paid for...
This is an unralistic, childish and dangerous opinion I think.
First, is the probability that you jackpot that big ? Yeah, just like becoming a rock star, or you win the lottery...
Second, should you reinvent your own wheel instead of contributing to other's ? Would you, if you don't get any financial reward ($) for it ?
Third, why do you need your product to be OSS if you think you can sell it ?
In the end, this thread gives a very sad view of OSS IMHO. It's much more than VCs and million dollars : knowledge has no price !
I'm actually more interested to know if JBoss will stay and improve, or suffer from this leader change (e.g. like Apple did when they hired Mr Coke), than to know how many dollars Mr Fleury and his family have owned thanks to the acquisition.
Sad thread, to say the least :-/
Cheers
Remi
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Message #227427
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Re: All for one!
Greg, the funny thing is, you found out just how much you and Jetty were worth to JBoss when we booted you out immediately after your CDN stunt. Life went on for JBoss while Jetty fell into obscurity.
Bill
Yikes. Sore winner. You've made your millions. There's no need to be a jerk.
But, its so much fun to keep on "exploiting" Greg!
Bill
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Message #227428
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Re: All for one!
Yikes. Sore winner. You've made your millions. There's no need to be a jerk.
But, its so much fun to keep on "exploiting" Greg!
Bill
Why?
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Message #227436
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Bill you're being a big berk!
Aren't you in a startup Rickard? What is your percentage of the company? The founders? the VCs? How does that compare to JBoss?
Bill
Bill, you seem to be such a bitter person, you obviously got screwed and you're still sore about it. I can't think why anyone would be so condescending to everyone except your one personal God who obviously gives you more pleasure than is humanly normal.
Although Marc was French (:-) for Cedric) he made lots of money and is the one with the last laugh, I congratulate him. You on the other hand seem to be going out of your way to take the flack as the most obnoxious personality in JBoss, for that I congratulate you.
I have no idea what percentage Rickard has but at least he has a personality, watch and learn Bill.
-John- (also in a start-up)
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Message #227438
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Re: He was a jerk
Marc was a jerk. He was very unprofessional to people on the JBoss forum. He suckered developers into writing code for free and then walked away (sold out) with a few hundred million dollars. Some of those unhappey developers have posted messages on TSS before. I could never believe why anyone ever followed some jerk because he quoted a few lines for the movie The Matrix.
I was never part of the JBoss fan club.
From what little I know of Marc, he seemed a bit bombastic, but the results seem to imply that it did not impede JBoss's adoption (or maybe it did and JBoss could be much further today).
However, I do have personal experience with JBoss forums, JBoss support (paid support) and JBoss employees in general. I found the forums to be very helpful and the community to be very strong and active (this was a couple of years ago) and the employees to be humble and smart. On the forum, I had questions about how to flush the authentication cache, and I got plenty of answers even with code samples.
I've used JBoss AS on several projects and as app servers go it is not the worst one to deal with. In fact, it is one of the better ones. (I seldom get to pick which app server we will be using and when I did get to pick it was not JBoss AS.)
On a side note, although they are not an apple to apple comparison... Spring adoption recently out does JBoss in general and specifically JBoss AS. And, I think Spring adoption is directly related to how well the Spring community is respected and that seems to have a lot to do with Rod Johnson et al (also Spring has a lot of utility). I think the public perception of JBoss needs to change or its continued growth will be harmed. Just my opinion.....
BTW I really admire Rickard and Bill. Rickard defense of JEE when the dodgy benchmarks came out was very timely. Rickard also pioneered what became dynamic reflection based AOP as far as I know anyway. Bill's talk on AOP (the second one not the first) one year at TSS was the best explanation I have seen on AOP. I also admire Gavin and Rod who at times seem to be at odds. Just because someone does not get along per se or appear to get along has no bearing on whether their contribution is important.
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Message #227440
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Re: Bill you're being a big berk!
Aren't you in a startup Rickard? What is your percentage of the company? The founders? the VCs? How does that compare to JBoss?
Bill
Bill, you seem to be such a bitter person, you obviously got screwed and you're still sore about it. I can't think why anyone would be so condescending to everyone except your one personal God who obviously gives you more pleasure than is humanly normal.
Although Marc was French (:-) for Cedric) he made lots of money and is the one with the last laugh, I congratulate him. You on the other hand seem to be going out of your way to take the flack as the most obnoxious personality in JBoss, for that I congratulate you.
I have no idea what percentage Rickard has but at least he has a personality, watch and learn Bill.
-John- (also in a start-up)
Yes but at least he did not stoop to insult someone based on their nationality. :o)
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Message #227447
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Re: He was a jerk
pioneered what became dynamic reflection based AOP as far as I know anyway. Bill's talk on AOP (the second one not the first) one year at TSS was the best explanation I have seen on AOP. I also admire Gavin and Rod who at times seem to be at odds. Just because someone does not get along per se or appear to get along has no bearing on whether their contribution is important.
That animosity seems to be one sided. I've never seen Rod or any of the Spring guys be anything but curteous. However, some of the JBoss guys seem to pursue a fight.
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Message #227448
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Re: Bill you're being a big berk!
Yes but at least he did not stoop to insult someone based on their nationality. :o)
You're absolutely right Rick, it's a bad habit in most cases but not with the French, they've always been fair game for the Brits, we've been doing it for a good 1000 years and we're good at it.
Somehow it's not difficult to imaging Marc as the French taunter
:-)
-John-
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Message #227452
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Re: All for one!
Greg, the funny thing is, you found out just how much you and Jetty were worth to JBoss when we booted you out immediately after your CDN stunt. Life went on for JBoss while Jetty fell into obscurity.
Bill
Bill,
thanks for the public confirmation that Jetty was removed from the JBoss project as a result of JBoss Groups business interests and not due to JBoss project technical interests.
And why was CDN a "stunt"? It was an attempt to provide an alternative source of services for the JBoss project by 8 JBoss committers who did no like the business structure of JBoss Group the company. But JBoss Group used it's control over CVS, forums, mailing lists and the project web site to banish us from the project and to prevent any competition to JBoss Groups services.
As I said, JBoss Group is an excellent business success story. But JBoss project sucks big time when it comes to the ethics of OSS - you have a fenced the commons that others help grow.
And - yeh I'm a bit bitter about it all.... but at least I'm not as bitter as you appear to be. Not sleeping well?
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Message #227453
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curteous Rod and gang
pioneered what became dynamic reflection based AOP as far as I know anyway. Bill's talk on AOP (the second one not the first) one year at TSS was the best explanation I have seen on AOP. I also admire Gavin and Rod who at times seem to be at odds. Just because someone does not get along per se or appear to get along has no bearing on whether their contribution is important.
That animosity seems to be one sided. I've never seen Rod or any of the Spring guys be anything but curteous. However, some of the JBoss guys seem to pursue a fight.
I agree with you for the most part. Rod sets the example and this is what I was trying to bring out. The culture on the Spring project has much to be admired.
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Message #227454
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Re: Bill you're being a big berk!
Yes but at least he did not stoop to insult someone based on their nationality. :o)
You're absolutely right Rick, it's a bad habit in most cases but not with the French, they've always been fair game for the Brits, we've been doing it for a good 1000 years and we're good at it.
Somehow it's not difficult to imaging Marc as the French taunter
:-)
-John-
I am not sure that we have been doing it for 1,000 years is such a good argument, but then I am not the king of political correctness either. I know when I went on a business trip to France that I was treated very well. I'd like to go back one day. I have not been to England yet.
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Message #227456
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Re: curteous Rod and gang
pioneered what became dynamic reflection based AOP as far as I know anyway. Bill's talk on AOP (the second one not the first) one year at TSS was the best explanation I have seen on AOP. I also admire Gavin and Rod who at times seem to be at odds. Just because someone does not get along per se or appear to get along has no bearing on whether their contribution is important.
That animosity seems to be one sided. I've never seen Rod or any of the Spring guys be anything but curteous. However, some of the JBoss guys seem to pursue a fight.
I agree with you for the most part. Rod sets the example and this is what I was trying to bring out. The culture on the Spring project has much to be admired.
Agreed. I strongly regret not knowing about the Florida Spring convention until too late. I would love to shake the hands of these gentlemen.
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Message #227458
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Evil Marc
Greg, you should stop twisting reality: your decision had nothing to do with code, art, love or Open Source, what you took is a very basic business decision: you thought doing CDN (and then Elba and Geronimo) would be a better way and would lead to a better pay off. Fair enough. But you might want to stick to your decision now. What striked me at that time is how you never sent us a personal e-mail telling us what you were doing (even if it was at the same time as your public announcement).
Come on Sasha! Nobody within JBossGroup could have been in any doubt that I did not support the equity share deal that was being proposed, nor the lack of involvement in the business that was on offer. There were long and detailed discussions about it.
Many (including you!) were involved in the early
discussions about alternatives to JBoss Group LLC.
CDN should not have been a surprise to you!
In early 2003, Marc made an "experiment" and decided to give some shares of his LLC company to some contributors (he had pretty much no employees at that time, so it was a way to mimic what traditional companies would do).
It was not an experiment! it was the delivery of the promise he made to all those that "swallowed the red pill" and put their support behind JBossGroup. Many found the delivery well short of the prior rhetoric and the allocations well short of reasonable or fair compensation.
But I'm happy for you that it worked out for you. Ask any of the CDNers and we will all tell you we were shocked at how personally you and the other JBossers took our split from JBoss Group. We were truly stunned that you no longer wanted us to work on the OS project and disappointed that friendships were severed because we did not accept Marc's structure and decided to try something else.
The future I wanted to see then was of a strong JBoss project with many companies big and small offering services for it.
But instead we have ended up with a world where only billion dollar companies provide the main services for OS EE java and will probably own the benefit of future innovation.
Not exactly my idea of an ideal outcome for the OSS developer - unless you were the lucky one to be there during the transition.
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Message #227460
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Nostalgia
What a contentious and meandering thread. I haven't seen one like this in years. I am disappointed however that Chip Tyler and Rolf haven't checked in yet.
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Message #227461
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Re: All for one!
And - yeh I'm a bit bitter about it all.... but at least I'm not as bitter as you appear to be. Not sleeping well?
Publicly complaining about something that happened more than 3 years ago seems a bit more bitter to me. Seriously, you need to move on man.
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Message #227463
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Re: Rickard, Rickard, Rickard...
That's just it: in this case you have done something rather unique! Most companies register one trademark for the product and one for the services. This makes it possible for me to be a "WebLogic consultant", but it is not possible for me to be a "BEA consultant". Two different trademarks, one for the product and one for the services. The unique aspect of this is that there is ONE trademark for "JBoss" which covers BOTH the product and services. So, technically speaking there is no way for me to say that I am a "JBoss consultant", since you can then claim trademark infringement by referring to the service clause of the trademark. So even though I helped build much of the architecture and code and whatnot, I am legally not allowed to give support for it. Bizarre, isn't it!?
JBoss also took on quite a bit of risk by doing this. Had the AS failed, it would have been hard to sell the company (or consultants/services). Hindsight being 20/20, most TSSers would probably be mocking JBoss today. IBM on the other hand, as you point out, chose *not* to couple their corporate identity and their product. This puts them at the opposite end of the risk/reward spectrum - part of any business.
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Message #227465
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Re: Rickard, Rickard, Rickard...
Boss also took on quite a bit of risk by doing this. Had the AS failed, it would have been hard to sell the company (or consultants/services). Hindsight being 20/20, most TSSers would probably be mocking JBoss today. IBM on the other hand, as you point out, chose *not* to couple their corporate identity and their product. This puts them at the opposite end of the risk/reward spectrum - part of any business.
What you wrote above is truly bizarre. I described how creating a trademark, which is invalid in the first place due to prior use, in such a way that it is designed to limit competition around services for JBoss, which is one of the most manipulative and stupid "business" moves I have ever seen, and you're saying that JBoss took a "RISK" by doing this?!? Since the whole thing is not even legal that means that YES, they took a "RISK"! But to put it in the terms you did above, where we are supposed to feel pity for JBoss Inc. for doing is just... nuts.
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Message #227468
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Re: posers
People like Frank make Ruby dubious.....
Like Coplien said: Software Development is before all a social cultural undertaking..... i would'nt want maintain Frank's Programms.
And if his statements reflect the state-of-mind of the ruby culture? Poor Ruby.
Oops, another Joe Java who missed it completely. Not surprised.
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Message #227469
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Re: Evil Marc vs. the white sheeps
In early 2003, Marc made an "experiment" and decided to give some shares of his LLC company to some contributors (he had pretty much no employees at that time, so it was a way to mimic what traditional companies would do). Some took the shares (Greg, you and your wife did it and made some money through the JBoss/RHT acquisition - good for you), while others stood up like a "Grand Prince" and refused it.
Sacha,
JBoss shares were given to me as an active JBoss committer, in just the same way as they were given to other committers, so I find your reference to me as merely "Greg's wife" rather belittling.
Puhleeze don't make me add sexism to the list of "evil jboss deeds" ;-)
Jan Bartel
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Message #227471
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Re: A bit off topic
- RedHat buys JBoss for approx $300+ million in stock/cash. There are SO MANY developers that have bits of code in that application that never received one cent. I wasn't even sure how this transaction was even legal.
Yes it was really unfair. Open source projects should never become a business. Don't participate or use this kind of "free" software.
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Message #227472
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Re: new generation
Cameron wrote:
1) Red Hat over-paid by at least a couple hundred million dollars.
Anybody that bought us had to over pay by some degree as we were at a crossroads: to either go IPO or get acquired. We were in a position of strength with any potential acquirer. In other words, if the deal didn't knock our sox off, we could walk away.
2) Outside of the VCs, Mark owned most of the stock, so he instantly because a very wealthy man.
This is one of the things I despised about the acquistiion. That certain jealous individuals broadcast BS that Marc got everything and the "real" developers got nothing. All I know is that I have at least 15 friends, including myself, that are brand new millionaires and countless others that have a nice brand new car...
Over the past six years I've known Marc, he has always taken care of those who stayed loyal to him.
Bill
Another good reason not to participate to this kind of open source project. Your code will only help those guys to make money on your back and help Bill to buy "a brand new car" (so funny ;-)
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Message #227481
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Re: new generation
Another good reason not to participate to this kind of open source project. Your code will only help those guys to make money on your back and help Bill to buy "a brand new car" (so funny ;-)
And can you tell us why couldn't you make some money on any OSS out there, BTW? What's holding you from creating your own startup and give support for whichever OSS, instead of crying when others are successfull doing it? And haven't all contributions helped you or your company do a better job also (aka make more money)? And since Rod is making some money on Spring, does that mean everyone else should stop contributing to it, unless they're "rightfully" paid?
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Message #227482
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Re: new generation
You've got to realise that Marc et al got their money for the JBoss business not the source code. There is an endless supply of open source code it's the business that is worth the money. Look at Linux, it's open source but Red Hat has made a business out of it.
You've got to realise that it's the people who contributed to the business that justify and get the money, code and coders are two a penny.
Spring and Mule are good examples, both open source, both clever stuff and both being well used with good adoption. The secret is now to milk the machine and make a business out of it. Rod and Ross are not going to fly around the world talking at shows, helping clients and employing people on good will, they need to earn money for the company to pay the employees and expenses. The end-game is to be bought, no company lasts for ever, you need an end-game and unless you're MS, IBM, Oracle etc. where world domination is your game acquisition is the usual goal.
Marc did this perfectly and is a model to others. It's that Rod and Ross etc. are also really nice people but being too nice doesn't impress the business people and VCs and that's why Ross took on CEO to handle these things, he's just too nice :-)
Stop moaning about where the money went, it followed the business not the source code.
-John-
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Message #227488
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The Riddle of Steel
This all reminds me of the riddle of steel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_the_Barbarian_%28film%29#The_Riddle_of_Steel
After Conan seeks out the group that murdered his people, Doom explains to him, "Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. Look around you." Thulsa motions to some of the thousands of followers surrounding his mountain who worship him as the mouthpiece of God. He points up to the top of a cliff, "There, on the rocks, that beautiful girl." He motions to the girl, "Come to me, my child." The girl steps off the cliff and falls to her death. "That is strength, boy. That is power: the strength and power of flesh. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength of your body, the desire in your heart. I give you this ...such a waste. Contemplate this on the tree of woe. Crucify him."
The only problem with the above is that in general women are not as stupid as most male engineers ganged together on a quest that ultimately involves an exit plan (a sad view). Apparently women do not have the urge to show off their wares in public and offer it up as free - this unfortunately is a male thing. I believe most women married to an open source contributor would be horrified to learn that their partner was spending hours each day contributing to a cause that at the end of the day had the potential to benefit others higher up in the food chain, with the occasional thank you note being posted on a forum to feed the hunger.
Opps have to go my future wife just found out what I am currently doing......CROM.........
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Message #227489
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Re: Evil Marc vs. the white sheeps
(Greg, you and your wife did it and made some money through the JBoss/RHT acquisition - good for you), while others stood up like a "Grand Prince" and refused it.
Sacha,
JBoss shares were given to me as an active JBoss committer, in just the same way as they were given to other committers, so I find your reference to me as merely "Greg's wife" rather belittling.
Puhleeze don't make me add sexism to the list of "evil jboss deeds" ;-)
Jan Bartel
First of all, that's not a correct quote. Second of all, it's common to refer to people by association unless they are involved in the conversation. By the same logic, referring to "other committers" is belittling.
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Message #227490
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Re: new generation
So Marc gamed the system. Good for him. Would you work with him again. He has to think about that going forward. He has no gimmick just cash and the cost of doing business with Marc has gone up. Chance is that JBoss gets Bluestoned to death. Marc exists stage left stinking of elderberries albeit a fine vintage. Unlike people like Steve Jobs, Marc will not have an Act II.
What Marc did to the OSS space at least for me is to cause me to question the end-game of any open software project. I use lots of opensource and there is now this sweetspot in the space between reaching critical community mass to keep a project viable (apache strategy) and seeing the project's community get hijacked into a pyramid scheme where very many contribute and very few see a payout. Once the product splits into community and commercial licenses it is not viable to me since I know the innovation will lag on the community version. With bitter end-games like JBoss, the community collapses and we all forgot the problem the original solution was addressing. The message board responses become community grade responses. Yeah, yeah, yeah - usual disclaimers about people being able to make a buck. The "product" that is JBoss has changed.
Hope springs eternal and my hope is that Spring (framework) has more of an eternal end-game.
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Message #227496
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Coup de tat
Greg,
But I'm happy for you that it worked out for you. Ask any of the CDNers and we will all tell you we were shocked at how personally you and the other JBossers took our split from JBoss Group. We were truly stunned that you no longer wanted us to work on the OS project and disappointed that friendships were severed because we did not accept Marc's structure and decided to try something else.
The thing is, if you guys had taken the high road on your way out there would have been little to no animousity. In fact, there probably would have been a concerted effort to bring some of you guys back. The problem was that the initial launch of CDN was a blatant attempt at a coup de tat of both the business and the project. Followed up by the attempt to funnel JBoss FSF licensed IP to the Geronimo project from the Elba fork(yes the copywrite claims were lame, blame the lawyers for pushing us in that direction, but the derivative work claims were not). I'm glad the Apache board made you clean up your act.
Bill
But instead we have ended up with a world where only billion dollar companies provide the main services for OS EE java and will probably own the benefit of future innovation.
Even though you and others try to paint us as un-open source, the reality is, we are. Any user of JBoss benefits from any future JBoss innovation.
Yeah, Red Hat reaps most of the financial benefits of JBoss, but that's only because vendors like yourself are too lazy to spend the time and cash it takes to build up their own brand. Really Greg, pre-2003, who funded all the JBoss JUG tours (and presented as well), JBoss One, JBoss sales, and the website? There's nothing stopping you legally from distributing JBoss binaries as is. Companies both very large and very small already do that with RHEL.
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Message #227498
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Re: Coup de tat
Hi Bill,
You might want to focus on getting www.jboss.com up and running again. This is what I just got within my browser. Did Marc take the database with him as well or did someone change all the password just in case and did not tell ops.
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html><head></head><body>
<div align="center">Cannot connect to database.</div></body></html>
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Message #227499
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dooms day scenario
Pretty negative outlook, Andrew, I still am trying to follow exactly what Marc did that all of you wouldn't have done, except if you listen to the analyst who would 'give' the $M's away. Yeah, right...
Predictions of JBoss' demise are greatly exaggerated, and have the air of hope or desperation for its fruition. There is no better home for JBoss than Red Hat, that much is established. How JBoss survives and thrives within the Linux structure will depend in large part on the transition away from a few mercurial figures (Bill, lay off the TSS for awhile) and in to the establishment of developers within large JEE shops.
This has always been its plight, to find a few advocates within these companies and demonstrate better technology coupled with a better model. I find it outrageous bordering on the brink of dis-ingenuous to suggest that JBoss is not winning this ground war. Everyone knows that outside of Wall St., everyone is counting on a JBoss victory for the long haul. That is the only point worth discussing, not % of shares, not business model proposals, and not personal grudges.
Everyone on here has been made better off, and career prospects are better off because of JBoss. Try and convince me otherwise. To suggest that the sky is falling makes one look like an apologist for already said app server platforms. They won, they overcame every last shread of competitive fodder that could be thrown at them, and now they get to build-out the JEE Linux base.
If you want to get in an argument, maybe it would be more timely to discuss Linux v. Solaris v. Longhorn implementations, and who wins. But I have a feeling that there are too many on this thread that don't want to have that conversation for fear of the ultimate outcome...
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Message #227500
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Re: new generation
Andrew
The "product" that is JBoss has changed.
Yup you're right. JBoss is more mature, feature complete, better documented, supported, managed, and maintained than it used to be.
Bill
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Message #227524
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Re: new generation
Another good reason not to participate to this kind of open source project. Your code will only help those guys to make money on your back and help Bill to buy "a brand new car" (so funny ;-)
And can you tell us why couldn't you make some money on any OSS out there, BTW? What's holding you from creating your own startup and give support for whichever OSS, instead of crying when others are successfull doing it? And haven't all contributions helped you or your company do a better job also (aka make more money)? And since Rod is making some money on Spring, does that mean everyone else should stop contributing to it, unless they're "rightfully" paid?
Well, there are many ways to make money. I feel like, in some ways, I have the entire Interface21 company at my disposal and that's a good place to be. I've had quite a bit of success by using projects such as Hibernate and Spring so I would hope that anyone who does commit changes, is also eating their own food(hate the dog food version) as the saying goes.
If you do, you are getting paid. If you want to go for the brass ring, I guess you should take ownership of a major piece. Look at how Acegi has become Spring Security.
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Message #227559
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Re: Coup de tat
Bill Burke :
Followed up by the attempt to funnel JBoss FSF licensed IP to the Geronimo project from the Elba fork(yes the copywrite claims were lame, blame the lawyers for pushing us in that direction, but the derivative work claims were not). I'm glad the Apache board made you clean up your act.
This is nonsense. To put some factual wood behind your FUD arrow, if my memory doesn't deceive me (and as I authored the response to you on behalf of the board, it probably doesn't), not only didn't the Apache board do as you assert, they noted that JBoss had infringed the Apache License by removing it and applying the LGPL to code from the Apache Log4J project.
If you need to refresh your memory, you can read it again here :
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/geronimo/private/20041028_jbossresponse.pdf?view=log
Let this one go, Bill.
geir
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Message #227566
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Re: Coup de tat
Bill Burke :
Followed up by the attempt to funnel JBoss FSF licensed IP to the Geronimo project from the Elba fork(yes the copywrite claims were lame, blame the lawyers for pushing us in that direction, but the derivative work claims were not). I'm glad the Apache board made you clean up your act.
This is nonsense. To put some factual wood behind your FUD arrow, if my memory doesn't deceive me (and as I authored the response to you on behalf of the board, it probably doesn't), not only didn't the Apache board do as you assert, they noted that JBoss had infringed the Apache License by removing it and applying the LGPL to code from the Apache Log4J project.
If you need to refresh your memory, you can read it again here :
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/geronimo/private/20041028_jbossresponse.pdf?view=log
Let this one go, Bill.
geir
As I said earlier, the copyright infringement letter we sent to Apache was lame. Just as lame as the Log4J junk Apache pushed back to us. The derivative work violations were VERY SERIOUS and important to us though. You actually believe we weren't in our right to challenge any of this? Violating the LGPL is a serious offense.
This wasn't Apache's fault and I wasn't trying to FUD Apache. IMO, the Apache board was probably very fuzzy on what exactly was going on, but eventually did the right thing and forced Geronimo to start from scratch. Its unfortunate that Apache's reputation was tarnished by this incident because of the lack of integrity of a few individuals.
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Message #227567
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Re: new generation
Somone should set up jboss and gerongo, deploy a basic application that does some basic round tripping, run some performance tests. Put something in public. That would be nice ;-)
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Message #227568
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Re: Coup de tat
Just a perfect opportunity for a JBoss person to say "I apologise for the misleading information ...", but noooo instead we just get more statements like "Log4J junk" and "lack of integrity of a few individuals". But then that's why people have such a low regard for them, and a high regard for groups like Spring/Interface21.
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Message #227570
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Re: Coup de tat
This thread is a joke. Who got shafted... Who feels hurt... Who wants to blame someone else... Who feels they have lost out on money... Who thinks they are perfect... Yadda Yadda Yadda....
If you want to have a war I think it would be a good idea to do it somewhere else. It doesn't help anybody here.
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