JBoss, Inc. has joined the Eclipse Foundation. They will be contributing code to the J2EE Standard Tools Project within Eclipse, and "anticipate our first major contribution will be a plug-in that will provide developers with a Java-based, aspect oriented framework that will be of use in any programming environment."

JBoss Joins Eclipse

JBoss Becomes Eclipse Foundation Member

Is this a join or an infection?

Doubtless they will now claim control of Eclipse in the same way they claim control of Tomcat.

Doubtless they will now claim control of Eclipse in the same way they claim control of Tomcat.

Now it's called "JBoss Eclipse".

That would be funny, seeing the JBoss marketing master go up against Big Blue ;-)

Perhaps the union of JBossAOP and AspectJ can thrust Java-based AOP into more limelight and into more Java production environments.

Perhaps the union of JBossAOP and AspectJ can thrust Java-based AOP into more limelight and into more Java production environments.

There will be no union of JBoss AOP and AspectJ. Bob is referring to the JBoss AOP Eclipse plugin we are working on.

Bill

Have you ever heard about AspectWerkz AOP ?

We are very closed in term of syntax and feature to AspectJ and provides plain Java AOP. JBossAOP has recently aligned on a syntax we have since a while where you define your aspect with annotations (including doclet for Java 1.3 / 1.4), and whose original idea comes from Ron Bodkin that worked on AspectJ at PARC.
AspectJ is really good when you are used about AOP and ready to "pay the price" of having the freedom to use dedicated AOP language keywords and tool sets.

If this JBoss move is just to provide a new plugin to Eclipse without working close to AJDT and AspectJ, I don't really see the need for doing so under the Eclipse umbrella.

May be Bill can explain that.

JBoss has JBossIDE since more than 2 years and this is not under the Eclipse umbrella right ?

Alex

Have you ever heard about AspectWerkz AOP ?We are very closed in term of syntax and feature to AspectJ and provides plain Java AOP. JBossAOP has recently aligned on a syntax we have since a while where you define your aspect with annotations (including doclet for Java 1.3 / 1.4), and whose original idea comes from Ron Bodkin that worked on AspectJ at PARC.AspectJ is really good when you are used about AOP and ready to "pay the price" of having the freedom to use dedicated AOP language keywords and tool sets.If this JBoss move is just to provide a new plugin to Eclipse without working close to AJDT and AspectJ, I don't really see the need for doing so under the Eclipse umbrella.May be Bill can explain that.JBoss has JBossIDE since more than 2 years and this is not under the Eclipse umbrella right ?Alex

The announcement is more that we're getting together with the J2EE tools guys on J2EE tools. I'm not sure how the relationship will help/effect our other projects like AOP yet.

I see you've borrowed our HAS and HASFIELD constructs. When are you going to borrow our Typedefs too?

As far as annotation syntax, I don't like how you've done introductions/mixins. We do it like below. It allows you to allocate the mixin object however you like so that you can configure it via it's constructor. The targetInstance is that object instance you're adding the mixin to. Feel free to borrow this idea as well...

public MyAspect {

  @Mixin(target=POJO.class, interfaces={org.acme.MyInterface})
  public static MyMixin createMyMixin(Object targetInstance)
  {
      return new MyMixin(targetInstance, "any", "params", "you", "want");
  }
}


Bill

Bill

I don't get why you raise such assumptions. It is good if we start agree on some semantics - just as we all have borrowed the main pointcut language semantics from AspectJ, since it ease user experience and perception - as long as minimal credit is given.

Let me just remind you what you wrote one month ago:

AspectWerkz is LGPL so feel free to steal.

I see you've borrowed our HAS and HASFIELD constructs.

It has been contributed by our users (Michael Nascimento and his team) - obviously they had rather take the time to do it for AspectWerkz rather than going with JbossAOP.

I moreover think this kind of designators should be generalized to a more customizable reflective architecture - something similar to what has been introduced by Josh (Shigeru Chiba, AOSD 2004).

Alex

BillI don't get why you raise such assumptions. It is good if we start agree on some semantics - just as we all have borrowed the main pointcut language semantics from AspectJ, since it ease user experience and perception - as long as minimal credit is given.Let me just remind you what you wrote one month ago:

AspectWerkz is LGPL so feel free to steal.

I see you've borrowed our HAS and HASFIELD constructs.

Yes, feel free to borrow anything. We intend on borrowing your hot swap capability.

Bill

This notion of "owning", "borrowing" and "stealing" ideas seems kind of weird to me... maybe you should switch your catch phrase from "JBoss - Professional Open Source" to "JBoss - Owning Open Source".

Its great to see JBoss joining the eclipse foundation. Thats the area this IDE lacks for Webapp/J2EE support. Yes I know about lomboz plugin ( I use myeclipse plugin) but its great to see JBoss and Weblogic getting integrated with eclipse.

The basic idea of joining Eclipse was to make sure we worked together.

As mentioned, JBoss has had a JBoss IDE project for a while - http://www.jboss.org/products/jbosside. It has an integration with Eclipse today and we intend to continue to support this. Marshall Culpepper will be leading this effort for us. We also work with all of the other IDE's out there in the market.

We will be working on continuing to enhance the JBoss IDE product, and merging it into the new Web Tools project as appropriate. Eclipse Webtools - http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/index.html - is an ambitious long term project that has a very broad set of goals to enable the developent of web-centric applications in Java and J2EE. We will make sure this project works with the various JBoss middleware projects and contribute where appropriate. We will be particularly active in the areas of Aspect Oriented Middleware - those aspects provded by middleare infrastructure - as well as OR Mapping.

JBoss intends to stay focused on providing the middleware while ensuring there are tools in the market (Eclipse, Borland, IntelliJ, etc.) that ease the development process as much as possible.

Bob Bickel
JBoss

...It has an integration with Eclipse today and we intend to continue to support this. Marshall Culpepper will be leading this effort for us. We also work with all of the other IDE's out there in the market....

As far as I remember it was very clearly stated that JBoss IDE would not be supporting NetBeans, which at the time I read this on the JBoss website, about 6 months ago, struck me as strange, since NetBeans is a true OS IDE that measures up with the commercially available IDE's (as Eclipse does), NetBeans has an open API to integrate 3rd party tools into it and has a pretty big install-base.
But then again, it must've been all politics, NetBeans being funded by SUN and all.

But I guess that this statement means that finally I can expect the tool of my favorite J2EE environment is being integrated with my favorite IDE.

Iwan

...It has an integration with Eclipse today and we intend to continue to support this. Marshall Culpepper will be leading this effort for us. We also work with all of the other IDE's out there in the market....

As far as I remember it was very clearly stated that JBoss IDE would not be supporting NetBeans, which at the time I read this on the JBoss website, about 6 months ago, struck me as strange, since NetBeans is a true OS IDE that measures up with the commercially available IDE's (as Eclipse does), NetBeans has an open API to integrate 3rd party tools into it and has a pretty big install-base.But then again, it must've been all politics, NetBeans being funded by SUN and all.But I guess that this statement means that finally I can expect the tool of my favorite J2EE environment is being integrated with my favorite IDE.Iwan

Iwan, it is a question of resources. If a NetBeans developer steps forward to contribute NetBeans integration, then we would welcome it and grant CVS access to that person. If you know somebody please contact marshall dot culpepper at jboss dot com, or advertise on the NetBeans list.

Bill

...It has an integration with Eclipse today and we intend to continue to support this. Marshall Culpepper will be leading this effort for us. We also work with all of the other IDE's out there in the market....

As far as I remember it was very clearly stated that JBoss IDE would not be supporting NetBeans, which at the time I read this on the JBoss website, about 6 months ago, struck me as strange, since NetBeans is a true OS IDE that measures up with the commercially available IDE's (as Eclipse does), NetBeans has an open API to integrate 3rd party tools into it and has a pretty big install-base.But then again, it must've been all politics, NetBeans being funded by SUN and all.But I guess that this statement means that finally I can expect the tool of my favorite J2EE environment is being integrated with my favorite IDE.Iwan

I'd be interested to know what J2EE tools people use with eclipse. I have always found eclipse to be a very bare system, and I have needed to purchase commercial add-ins to make it useful for my work. I particularly found the lack of an SWT GUI designer very strange, as the fast open-source GUI was one of the selling points of eclipse. I find NetBeans preferable as it comes with a Swing GUI designer, J2EE support and tomcat built-in. The next version of NetBeans (currently available as beta) has full refactoring (like eclipse) and Java 1.5 support. As far as I can tell, no built-in Java 1.5 support is planned for Eclipse 3, which would seem to be a significant disadvantage.

<quote>
I'd be interested to know what J2EE tools people use with eclipse. I have always found eclipse to be a very bare system, and I have needed to purchase commercial add-ins to make it useful for my work. I particularly found the lack of an SWT GUI designer very strange, as the fast open-source GUI was one of the selling points of eclipse. I find NetBeans preferable as it comes with a Swing GUI designer, J2EE support and tomcat built-in. The next version of NetBeans (currently available as beta) has full refactoring (like eclipse) and Java 1.5 support. As far as I can tell, no built-in Java 1.5 support is planned for Eclipse 3, which would seem to be a significant disadvantage.
</quote>

Steve,

IMO, we need to categorize those plug-ins for IDEs (NetBeans, Eclipse, etc.) in different types:

1. Editor-type plug-ins (editors for XML, Java, Velocity, Ant, etc.). You use these plug-ins to edit something. Very useful since you have syntax high-lighting, etc. In this category you also see SWT-Editor, Swing-Editor, HTML-Editor, etc. For Eclipse you have VE (VisualEditor), IMO, a very good SWT- *and* Swing-Editor. But NetBeans also has a very good Swing-Editor. So, the choice is yours ;-)

2. Wizard- or Assistant-type plug-ins. With this type you can create such EJB templates, or any other files, which you can overwrite to use them -> "skeletons for you". Sometimes useful but many times not. I prefer to use MDA approach (you have your own control to what the tool will generate for you, also skeletons, etc.) instead of using such wizards or assistants.

3. Build- and Execution-type plug-ins. Plug-ins for "building" (Java, J2EE) applications (JAR files for EJB, war files for WEB, etc.) and "executing" (start a J2EE server, stop, redeploy, debug or just start a simple Java process "run", etc.) applications. IMO, not useful at all. For this purpose you don't need to make you dependent on IDEs like NetBeans or Eclipse. Use Ant! By using Ant for this purpose, you are independent of those IDEs. You also can run those builds and executions from inside and outside your IDE (continuous development)! Learn to use Ant and you don't need such plug-ins anymore. Almost all IDEs support Ant, so you can start Ant *within* your IDE (not only outside :-)). In this case NetBeans is very advanced. The 4.x version supports you to have Ant-based projects. It means you can have your build and execution files completely in Ant.

I know that a lot of people will say, "ah c'mon we need to have a very nice plug-ins for that purpose, so that I don't feel like I'm using vi or something" ;-) But remember each time you upgrade your IDE you need to upgrade your plug-ins, also if you have someone in the team that does not use the same IDE... (this is sometimes a matter of personal choice :-)).

I know that JBossIDE (combination of plug-ins type 1, 2 and 3) looks good with a good support of XDoclet (this is the type 1 plug-ins: editor plug-ins, so this is useful) but building (compiling, packaging), executing, debugging can be done just by using Ant and you will have many advantages if you are using Ant:

- Run everywhere seamlessly (within IDEs, different IDEs, outside IDEs, different OSs) -> continuous development.

- No need to make dependency with the plug-ins.

- Most of J2EE app servers deliver the needed Ant files.

- Learn once, use everywhere. You can use Ant for every activity in your development process.

So, general: Plug-ins type 1 -> good, plug-ins type 2 and 3 -> not necessary :-)

I have an example of doing everything with Ant:
EJOSA: Enterprise Java Open Source Architecture: http://ejosa.sourceforge.net. I use JOnAS, but it's just a snap to use JBoss instead...

My 0.2 cent, cheers,
Lofi.
http://www.openuss.org

I've used Lomboz and Sysdeo's Tomcat plugin + some JSP one. I've not yet purchased a plugin and have tons. Not sure why you've needed to. I am however thinking of buying my first - EchoStudio.

As far as I can tell, no built-in Java 1.5 support is planned for Eclipse 3, which would seem to be a significant disadvantage.

Never heard about Eclipse 3.1 ? it is M2 to-day

As far as I can tell, no built-in Java 1.5 support is planned for Eclipse 3, which would seem to be a significant disadvantage.

Never heard about Eclipse 3.1 ? it is M2 to-day

This is good news. I had heard rumours that 1.5 support would not be around until version 4.

Regarding other comments above in reply to my post: I know almost all J2EE tasks can be done using ant, but where Netbeans excels is in J2EE debugging, especially JSPs. A year ago I was heavily into JSPs, and found nothing in any free eclipse plugins that would (at that time) allow me to debug the JSP sources, and not just the generated servlets. I'll take another look at Lomboz, and Eclipse 3.1. I find comparing Eclipse and Netbeans interesting, as it seems they are converging fast in terms of features.

Eclipse Webtools - http://www.eclipse.org/webtools/index.html - is an ambitious long term project that has a very broad set of goals to enable the developent of web-centric applications in Java and J2EE. We will make sure this project works with the various JBoss middleware projects and contribute where appropriate.

As Bob says, WebTools is a pretty ambitious project. It has been brought back to life by ObjectWeb, with the support of Eclipse MO (see: http://www.objectweb.org/phorum/read.php?f=25&i=69&t=69, http://www.objectweb.org/phorum/read.php?f=25&i=72&t=72).

As says Bjorn Freeman-benson, WTP lead: "The contribution of the ObjectWeb consortium to set up an Eclipse project demonstrates the true commitment of ObjectWeb to facilitating the development of open-source software in a professional and ethical way. The cooperation between Eclipse and ObjectWeb is definitely an addition to the developers and users common good. ObjectWeb is an amazing and powerful group. With such support, I am confident that WTP will be successful and will quickly become the open-source platform of choice underlying vendor-specific J2EE tooling."

Congratulation to JBoss! This is a great news that JBoss Group eventually joins multi-player, community efforts targeting open-source for the enterprise.

I am surpriced that they can afford membership. I didn't knew that Open Source was so lucrative; + $500,000 a year to Sun for J2EE license too..

Option 1) $500,000, payable on an annual or quarterly basis;

Option 2) $375,000, payable on an annual or quarterly basis,
plus 1 Developer assigned full-time to participate on
a Development Team

Option 3) $250,000, payable on an annual or quarterly basis,
plus 2 Developers assigned full-time to participate
on a Development Team...

I didn't knew that Open Source was so lucrative;

Which is why our doco is free since last summer. We don't need it to fund any development anymore. We've quadrupled in size since last year and are still quite profitable. The success of JBoss is reflected in the success of our business.

Bill