MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent

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News: MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent

  1. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent (33 messages)

    If a judge's order takes effect forcing Microsoft to include Sun Microsystems' Java software in the Windows operating system, neither the companies nor PC users will see much immediate impact.

    Over time, observers say, the biggest consequence could be the precedent of a judge -- and not engineers, software companies or even users -- deciding what is installed on personal computers.

    "This is the first cyberspace court-ordered remedy, so there will be an awful lot of eyes watching this," said Richard Doherty, director of the research firm Envisioneering Group.

    Read this interesting look on the MS/SUN court case

    Threaded Messages (33)

  2. It is interesting to see that people are torn on whether this case will make any difference at all to Java.

    This article falls on the side of "YES, what a victory!"
    Java developers laud ruling in Microsoft case

    Even the software partners reaction is mixed:
    SP Reaction To Microsoft Injunction Mixed

    Only time will tell I guess.
  3. This ruling may have been more significant, I think, if there was a single piece of software you could point to and say "There, that's the Sun JRE". But you can't. Do they mean 1.3? 1.4? Which version?

    Assuming it's 1.4, then what happens when 1.5 comes out, and developers start writing applications that require the 1.5 API? Suddenly, the 1.4 on every windows platform is useless.

    I can't see this as anything more than a symbolic victory.
  4. I can't see this as anything more than a symbolic

    > victory.

    Then maybe you should actually read the decision.
  5. It would be more interesting if Microsoft counter-sued Sun forcing them to support their .nyet framework... and won!
  6. It would be more interesting if Microsoft counter-sued >Sun forcing them to support their .nyet framework... and >won!


    Microsoft already supports Java in their own fashion. Or are you asking for support on solaris? which I don't think Microsoft wants.
  7. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Why is the appeal on this ruling being mounted on an Electron Microscope? Meanwhile, the criminal acts committed by Microsoft weren’t.

    Why is this ruling being made such a spectacle of? Why wasn't the slap on the wrist from DOJ publicized in this manner? Its impact on Java was unprecedented.

    Recently, Microsoft has “bought” its way into several Java community spaces:

    Java World
    The Server Side
    http://www.javalobby.org/threadMode3.jsp?message=40391087&thread=6329&forum=61

    I expect to see more tempted from their “Java” goals for immediate CASH not taking into consideration their long term plans and image. It seems the industry has not learned its lesson, which is FOCUS on what you do well and amplify it. If you don’t someone else will.

    A small lesson on Greed:

    In South America they would dry squash and put a slit through it making sure the hand of a monkey can fit within it but not its fist. The squash will then be baited with fruits, nuts, etc and tied to a tree. The monkey then places his hand easily within the slit of the squash and clenches onto fruits within the squash. Unfortunately, the monkey does not release his clutches on the fruits when the hunters arrive because of sheer greed. You see, his greed for the fruits caused him his life and made him lose focus of what’s important.
  8. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    And what for would you shoot a monkey :-) ?
  9. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    This article is such baloney !!

    Without this ruling , client side Java would have gone the way of Lotus and WordPerfect.

    MS got away with killing Lotus and WordPerfect. They have a prior "criminal" record. We , the java comunity,needed this ruling. Defendants with prior criminal history are given more severe punishment. The punishment fits the crime!
  10. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    This article is such baloney !!


    +1

    Lets examine the observations:

    >> But how big a victory for Sun? Minimal

    In terms of revenue? Obviously its minimal - because the JVM is free.

    >> How big a loss for Microsoft? Even more minimal

    Its not meant to be a loss for Microsoft. The intention is to maintain fair competition - ie prevent Microsoft from taking unfair advantage of bundling its CLR in place of a JVM.

    >> But Java, which has been criticized for being slow

    Oh, that one again.

    >> faces stiff competition [from] Macromedia's Flash, which is
    >> less robust but considerably easier to program than Java

    Really?
    Perhaps Java Applets face competition from Flash - but Java in general?

    -Nick
  11. Those who use Java...[ Go to top ]

    truly understand its power and potential. The wealth of having a cohesive, consistent OO strategy from client all the way through to the Server-side (where J2EE is clearly superior to any other technology) will be aided by this ruling.

    Delivering our rich clients through the Browser is the right and true path to the ultimate goal of end-user satisfaction and pleasure.

    The power of the language will reduce the cost of software ownership and maintenance. Interpretation of Java byte code incurs a performance hit, but the structure and elegance of the language makes it possible to outline a clear scalability path that negates the per-node performance hit.

    A portion of the money saved on maintenance (for properly designed systems, of course) can be allocated to the purchase of server-side hardware. Properly designed client-side components will give the user an experience the likes of which they have never experienced. They will eventually demand Java products.

    Eventually, the runtime interpreter will be the Operating system, and the performance of Java will actually be looked upon as an advantage.

    Once OO paradigms and patterns are understood, it is a small step to project the usefulness of the Java language for hundreds of years, something heretofore impossible with any development technology.

    Microsoft must comply - greed sits atop their shoulder like a little monster, eager to consume till the point of morbid obesity.

    Java and Sun will survive and eclipse Microsoft - their greedy little monster, without the blood and sweat of others to consume, will start feasting on its owners.
  12. Those who use Java...[ Go to top ]

    <John>
    The wealth of having a cohesive, consistent OO strategy from client all the way through to the Server-side (where J2EE is clearly superior to any other technology) will be aided by this ruling.
    </John>

    J2EE superior to any other technology? That is a bold statement to make about any technology.
  13. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    No company, organization, governing body should have the right to force what a company can and can't develop. As long as it does not threaten the economy or the security of the country it resides in.

    Including Java will have no affect on the Windows system other than forcing users to have a slow software appliance unwilling forced onto their system.

    You can argue all you want, but Microsoft SHOULD have the right to provide whatever software it sees fit with its own product.

    Windows is not a product of the world, it belongs to Microsoft. We pay them to use it. Maybe SUN should have to pay Microsoft money if they want to have their software included with the operating system.

    I have to pay Dell to have Windows on a new PC I order, so why should I have to pay for the extended cost that another company is imposing on Microsoft.

    Or maybe instead of going to Microsoft to have the software installed they should have made arrangements with the hardware vendors to have them install it with the operating system. Usually this is how I get software on a new PC, not by having companies force it onto the OPERATING system.

    SUN is just jealous of Microsofts success and cannot come up with a BETTER operating system than they, so they are trying to tag along with their success.

    The judge in this case is has probably been blinded by the SUN.
  14. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Are you on crack? That's all I can think of to say. I don't even know how to reply to your comment. Your ignorance is dumbfounding.
  15. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Steve Lewis and /Ravi,

    Have you ever actually used Solaris? Linux? That is some of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

    One of the experiences that I've seen is that people who've learned to develop on Windows, but have little or no experience say the types of things you are referring to (very large scale Unix or Java experience). Only when these people actually switched did they see the power to be gained from Java or Unix or whatever else. I went through it also. I started at Unisys (generally considered an MS front company). That doesn't mean that one is really more powerful than the other (at least .NET v J2EE), it just means I saw new abilities to do things in Unix and Java that never really existed anywhere else. While .NET has alleviated some of that condition, Windows really has not. Besides that I still see choice a number of powerful reasons for J2EE/*Nix in certain circumstances, and single stack as a powerful reason for choosing windows .NET.

    As for Ravi, I think you are probably doing something wrong with the JCO, since I've talked to people using it just fine.

    As for performance, I've some of the world's largest banking and transactional systems running on J2EE without a problem. As well, I have choices for levels of performance from Tomcat to BEA. The performance arguement is more marketing than a necessity. It's just to easy to throw more relatively inexpensive resources at performance.
    And while marketing sells, it doesn't mean it's right. And a well designed application doesn't even require that.

    I think you both need to learn some objectivity for the tools you use. They're both probably good (.NET and J2EE). They are tools for jobs. J2EE may be the hammer, and .NET the screwdriver. They have plusses and minusses both: different uses.

    As for Windows, over my career I've consistently seen greater power from the unixes of this world. That coming from a previous Windows zealot (I was even a presenter for SQL Server 7 at it's release for Comdex!). It took a lot to convince me, but it happened.

    -Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  16. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Jason, I was replying to a different poster. I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

    :)
    Steve
  17. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    oops, sorry Steve. I keep telling myself that one of these days I ought to learn to read.

    -Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  18. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Luckily, English isn't required to be a programmer. Sometimes knowing math isn't even required!

    Steve
  19. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    The irony of modern software development: Rigorous Calculus and Physics classes are required for a Computer Science degree and seldom if ever used on the job.
  20. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    I was trying to be clever since Jason is at the Science and Engineering center. ;)
  21. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    <quote>
    No company, organization, governing body should have the right to force what a company can and can't develop. As long as it does not threaten the economy or the security of the country it resides in.
    </quote>

    Y'know, people tried that sort of approach to business in the 1800s. The result were monopolies that stunted economic growth. As a result every modern nation has anti-monopoly laws, and you've just seen a judge apply those laws.

    Do you think the laws of economics that describe how monopolies work have changed? If not, how would doing things the way you suggest (in general, not just for this one case) best serve the public good?


    Sean
  22. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    AND, do you not think that a monopoly which uses it's power to create market distortions, prevent now market entrants, and run others out of business qualifies as a threat to the economy?

    I assure you it is. That is the reason for Antitrust. Laissez-faire is good up to a point. And occasionally congress sticks it's nose in business issues it probably shouldn't (i.e. derivative financial instruments a la orange county). But in antitrust, there is a strong necessity for regulation.

    Also, antitrust has little to do with technical merits and plenty to do with market power and abuse.

    -Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  23. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    |
    | Including Java will have no affect on the Windows system
    | other than forcing users to have a slow software appliance
    | unwilling forced onto their system.
    |

    It seems this sentiment keeps rising. However, the court ruling DOES NOT FORCE ANYONE to write Java client applications. Much less, it doesnt force anyone to USE Java Client applications.

    As I see it, developers will have a choice. That, surely, is a good thing?

    The only party being forced is Microsoft - they are being forced to compete... but on level terms. I see no problem with that.

    If indeed, the CLR is a superior solution, then it will win out in the end anyway.
    If Microsoft are truly confident of this, then I cant see what objection they (or anyone) can possibly have.

    |
    | SUN is just jealous of Microsofts success
    |

    Sun is probably the only company who can afford this kind of confrontation with Microsoft... (ie Microsoft doesnt have them by the tackle in some other business area - unlike IBM, HP, etc, etc)

    -Nick
  24. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Adam: "No company, organization, governing body should have the right to force what a company can and can't develop."

    Spoken like a true press-release. Please see:

    http://www.actonline.org

    Adam: "SUN is just jealous of Microsofts success and cannot come up with a BETTER operating system than they, so they are trying to tag along with their success."

    It is common to attribute human attributes to relatively complex organizations, like "Microsoft is evil" or "Sun is jealous." However, it it a trite oversimplification, and should not be the tool of choice for a rational thinker. If you'd simply like to argue, go to one of the Java advocacy newsgroups like CLJA.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  25. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    SUN is just jealous of Microsofts success and cannot come up with a BETTER operating system than they, so they are trying to tag along with their success.


    one could say that those who oppose ruling are jelous of Java programmers, they missed the chance 4 years ago to jump into the Java wagon and get better jobs.

    but generalizations and oversimplifications are always incorrect. this rule is an exception to itself :)
  26. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Why is SUN complaining JSDK 1.4 doesn't run on Windows? I've had no real problems other than the ones that the INCOMPATIBLE interpreters use.

    Does this open the door way for all the other interpretted language to have to be on the operating system.

    I'm sure Microsoft doesn't write (a lot of) code that makes other peoples products not work on their operating system, if they did, then they would go out of business in that area.

    Microsoft, tried to play nice with SUN, then SUN got bitchy when Microsoft tried tweaking their engine. So Microsoft just dropped them and a possible player. Maybe if SUN had instead worked with Microsoft to develop an engine on the Windows platform, then they could of had it integrated into the operating system, much like .NET is today.

    SUN just has been repeatedly kicking them sells. In this economical age, everyone is just trying to get as much of the pie as possible, starvation causes people to act in odd ways.

    I'm not convinced either language is more powerful than the other, .NET being so new, and the next operating system from Microsoft being fully embeded into the .NET framework. It will be interesting to see what the market decides.

    I liked the idea of Microsoft counter-suing SUN to make them support .NET on their platform. But that would be too SUN-ish. Currently, there are projects to run .NET on *nix systems. This is a project by the professionals in the *nix world. It will be interesting to see once its released, how much of a difference it will be.

    I don't think Java or .NET is ever going to win, unless either side makes something so remarkable, that it blows away the competition.
  27. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    I don't think Java or .NET is ever going to win, unless either side makes something so remarkable, that it blows away the competition.


    it depends on what is "win". I don't see enterprise projects with .NET yet, there are many with j2ee.
  28. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    I don't see enterprise projects with .NET yet, there are many with j2ee.


    J2EE project failures outnumber all other projects that involve non-J2EE platforms, on the other hand! Many of the J2EE failure involve deployment issue where IT support folks have no choice rather than keep chasing closed-source and/or open-source folks all around ;-)

    An enterprise IT support person that I consult with recently lamented- they would rather single vendor - be it Oracle, Microsoft or even BEA - but not SUN - rather than keep chasing folks all around!

    What do you folks think- given the dismal support in the open-source area, with an exception of the JBOSS folks, IT folks prefer single vendor as much as they can (wish)!

    Regards,
    /Ravi
  29. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    J2EE project failures outnumber all other projects that involve non-J2EE platforms, on the other hand!


    I'm sure you don't have any statistical data.

    People who fail always find excuses, be it j2ee, VB or .net. I'm sure that if one is stupid enough to fail with j2ee, he'd fail with anything else. Basically, losers fail, it's about people, not technology.
  30. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    It's always about people. Don't blame the gun for the killing.
  31. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    "People who fail always find excuses, be it j2ee, VB or .net. I'm sure that if one is stupid enough to fail with j2ee, he'd fail with anything else. Basically, losers fail, it's about people, not technology."

    Agreed.

    As for IT wanting everything from one vendor - of course they do, it means they don't have to learn as much and their lives are easier. But, ease of maintenance is only one consideration in software development, and truth be told, a very small one to most technology managers...I'd say near last on the list.
  32. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    Elaine: "As for IT wanting everything from one vendor - of course they do, it means they don't have to learn as much and their lives are easier. But, ease of maintenance is only one consideration in software development, and truth be told, a very small one to most technology managers...I'd say near last on the list. "

    I disagree with this statement. While I don't think ease of maintenance gets as much attention as it should, it is generally given a reasonable amount of attention on most development projects.
    I think the original comment was referring to a support perspective rather than a development one however. From an operations and/or support perspective, reducing the total number of vendors is usually a high priority.
    At least that is my experience.....
  33. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    My comments on this subject....

    + Fundamentally what we're seeing is a battle between two major software development platforms: Java and .NET.

    + The influence of the software platform on the ways be build and maintain software is enormous!

    + We, the engineers of software, are the consumers of these software development platforms.

    + Microsoft, Sun, IBM, etc. would all LOVE to be in control of that platform. The power and rewards of such control would be enormous.

    + Ultimately we want the MARKET, not a judge, not Microsoft, not Sun, not IBM, but the free MARKET to decide what goes into our software engineer platforms. Compared to these other alternatives, free markets mean greater incentive for innovation, greater responsiveness to consumer needs, and a healthy balance of power.

    + Anti-trust law, aimed at protecting consumer choice and a free market, states simply that a company cannot use a monopoly position in one market to use that power to influence it's position in another market.

    + Microsoft is already bundling .NET with Windows.

    + Microsoft has been found to hold a monopoly in desktop operating systems by the US district court and this ruling has been upheld by the Appellate Court.

    + Even after this judges decision to require Microsoft to bundle Java with Windows, Java will still have to compete with .NET for consumers (ie software developers) in the marketplace. Why not read this judges ruling as being "pro-choice" rather than "pro-Sun" or "pro-Microsoft".

    Software isn't going to go away anytime soon. With software development costs soaring, the impact of software engineering platforms be enormous. Our society and our economy depend on innovation. I sure hope we continue to have a free market in software engineering platforms. The stakes are way to high to trust them to any one vendor: Sun, Microsoft, or anyone else.

    Doug
  34. MS Java Ruling Sets IT Precedent[ Go to top ]

    I think one of the MAJOR benefits of this ruling is that people will get out of the dinosaur-age of writing to the 1.1 api (soley for making the app work on MS jvm) and start working with the current 1.4 api. I float around javagaming.org and many people aren't taking care of the latest features such as volitile images and full screen because of the desire to have it compatable with MS (aka 1.1). If a 1.4 jdk is rolled into windows distro, that argument will be moot (especially if it's webstart, just click on the .jnlp file and you're off to the races). I think this is a huge boon to java developers.

    -Chris