Sun Microsystems sued for 'favouring' Indian workers

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News: Sun Microsystems sued for 'favouring' Indian workers

  1. Sun Microsystems was hit with a lawsuit on Monday alleging that the firm laid off thousands of US high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.

    Sun Microsystems was co-founded by IITian and venture capitalist Vinod Khosla and Scott McNealy (the current CEO) in 1982. With a market cap of over $150 billion, it is the largest corporation founded by an Indian. After leading the company for four years he left to become a general partner of Kleiner Perkins Caufield and Byers.

    Read Sun Microsystems sued for 'favouring' Indian workers and Ex-Sun worker files discrimination suit.

    Past but related TSS news:
    Sun shifts core Java unit from US to Bangalore, India.

    Editors Note: Due to past experiences, this thread will be closely monitored for flames, insults, and similarly stupid messages. All such messages will be marked noisy.

    Threaded Messages (91)

  2. In corporate world(software companies), money is the rule so if you wan't let them hire cheaper worker, they will move(development) to cheaper location(India)
  3. This is not about the rules of the market but about the rule of law (employment and immigration law to be precise)!

    Radu
  4. My Concern[ Go to top ]

    I don't care about race and stuff. I know Indians and Asians are just as capable as Caucasians (minus communication problems). My concern is, that not only is the US market a competition, but so is the global market. By outsourcing and letting many foreign workers work and attend school here, the US loses its competitive advantage. It's like Sun allowing Microsoft employees to come to their offices and learn their business secrets. Basically, countries compete with each other on economic and technological grounds and the US is sleeping with the enemy. Hopefully McD's won't import too many foreigners in the coming years because I'll need at least some place to work.
  5. Isn't Sun the company that is using the old tried and true 'bash Microsoft as a corporate goal' that worked so wonderfully for Steve Jobs in the late 80's and Netscape in the mid 90's? Maybe hiring cheap labor will bring their stock price over 3.25. Investors take note. Corporate strategy 101: make money, higher cheap labor, make money, bash the competition every chance you get, make money, encourage your employees by telling them to bash the competition (give them a goal to strive for!).

    Are there are any companies out there interested in developing good software products and selling them for a profit? That is, where good is defined by the software offering value to your customers as opposed to being relative to how well you can black pr the competition.

    There seems to very little of that. But it is pretty obvious where former Sun employees learned their strategies.
  6. If Sun is looking for skillful engineers with more modest salary demands, they must surely visit Eastern Europe :!)
  7. Indians are employeed in Eastern Europe too.
  8. what's the long term vision?[ Go to top ]

    Cheap labor is a very narrow sighted vision. If a company wants to exist for the long run, they have to consider other factors, and not just bottom line. Why do you think all the visionary companies keep giving back to the community?

    I can live with the decision of replacing the old (experience, pay, etc..) with the new as long as the people are here. That’s the nature of the business and I can accept that. If we start to move all jobs out of the country (first cheap farm labor, then factory worker, now programmers, who’s next?) In the short term, the companies will see an increase in profit margin. In the long run, all the people here would be jobless. Jobless people don’t spend money, which is what drives our economy. How many people here are rushing out to the get new release of software these days?

    Companies can always move out of the States and in to other countries for the cheap labor, however they could have a negative backlash of American not buying their product. To put on the front of an American company and populate it will foreign workers seems wrong.

    We’ll have to see how this law suite ends up.
  9. good points[ Go to top ]

    For an historical context I recommend:

    Wealth and Democracy by Kevin Phillips

    You may not agree with everything he says, but obviously he has done a lot of research for this book. I think chap. 4 is a good starting point for this discussion.
  10. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

    If I were a Sun employee I would keep in mind that the corporate leadership obviously feels no loyalty to it's workers, therefore loyalty to the company may be misplaced.

    However, it's just a fact of life that we older American workers are going to have to provide more value than a younger foriegn worker. It a double whammy. We older workers must be able to provide more value to our employers than younger workers and we Americans must be able to provide more value to our employers than foriegn workers. There's no problem with that, it's the American way. And we can do it too, if we have a plan.

    I recently read a good article titled "How to Keep Your Job" here... http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/talks/HowToKeepYourJob/HowToKeepYourJob.htm.

    As for me, here's parts of my plan...

    ...The Java platform figures big. I will continue to invest my time and energy learning new Java technologies and specifications. Java expertise is harder to obtain than .NET. Any doofus can get a copy of .NET Studio and start making forms. Designing and building a scalable, maintainable, secure, and usable network application is really hard. By the time you aquire the skill to architect and build good systems in .NET MS will have abandoned it and will have moved on to it's next marketing scheme. Because Java is widely supported it will be around and be in demand for far longer.

    ...Open source figures big. If I can use tools that cost almost nothing to build a system for a company and my competitor (the .NET doofus) has to spend many thousands just to get started then a client can pay me more but spend less on the entire project. Its simple math. We will all benefit by supporting and particiapting in open source projects.


    ted stockwell
    jlense.sf.net
  11. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

    There is nothing in your plan which a non-American can not do!
  12. More For Less Is Sensible[ Go to top ]

    We all do it at the mall, in the car lot and the rest. Companies should not get the blame for not "Buying American". It is the very nature of companies to increase profit. The problem is that many times they do it recklessly with uncontrollable consequences just to push the revenue reports for whatever meeting. Consider security and dependency.

    We rely on other countries for oil. Nice, right? How about depending on India for code and support? Let's say they get upset at American hegemony. What's Sun to do? Microsoft? Either lose big and all companies that use their products, or push the government for a just war. American Express uses Sun technologies. Sun uses Indian brain matter. India goes nuts. American Express goes to Congress and gives a doomsday power point presentation... Whatever.

    You see, I don't blame the companies. What companies do is pathologically predictable. People fail so many times to understand that companies exist not to provide national, economical or job security but to meet shareholder expectation. It's those that we choose to be our leaders that sleep in the cockpit.

    As a developer, I make sure I know my stuff and stay out of the disposable sector. Java is good for that. And fun.
  13. Do you know your stuff?[ Go to top ]

    so can you make 'the Java' talk to 'the DB'?
  14. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

    'If I were a Sun employee I would keep in mind that the corporate leadership obviously feels no loyalty to it's workers, therefore loyalty to the company may be misplaced.'

    So much for teamwork. It's funny how companies want team players but only go so far as to hype their 'team' spirit and aren't actually part of it. It doesn't matter if the company goes with cheaper labor from another country. That cheaper labor force will get older and the companies will toss them aside as well.

    The product of 'company-employee loyalty' and the products of the company will surely mirror each other in quality. After all the company has set the overall goals it strives for and the quality of those goals will be part and parcel of the products it's customers purchase. Which in the end creates an industry where poor quality is the norm and accepted at least until it hits bottom when the customers stop buying their products.

    Sun has never been a successful software company and their latest 'web services development' environment is likely as much hype as their last effort to make development more cost effective and easier (which was the big J2EE container with IDE's for EJB development). Hiring foriegn labor to the extent where their American labor force sues only shows another of their poor management decisions. MS made a big push into india last year and no one is suing them.

    The only thing good about Sun's software is they gave it away and other companies created products from it's specs. But those are the companies making the profits. Not Sun. Praise them for making standards but their implementations of them are not profitable to them and not as good quality as the implementations of other companies. I don't know if that's because they hire too many H1B developers and I don't think the country of origin of a developer necessarily determines their ability. I do think it's company policies and management that determine it's success and Sun doesn't have alot of that when it comes to software revenues.

    If you want to keep your job as a developer don't work for companies with poor management like Sun. Keeping up with the latest and greatest is a goal the company you work for should be helping you achieve. The fact that you have it as a goal as well is a good sign that it'll be achieved within a company that does.
  15. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

    First up all Sun microsystem's co-founder is an Indian (Vinod Khosla ). He know what is the worth of Indian software brain. Anyway, the person who files a case against Sun Micro system is 56 years old, If I am a programmer or Developer at that age that means I am not good for that job. So a professional developer or engineer is not necessary to follow his path. There is nothing as cheap and expensive when it comes to software, cuz if somebody write bad codes, it will function as bad cuz computers know only bytes of 0 and 1. I am not sure whether computer can identify the author's origin and skin color during the run time.
      There are 100s of multinational firms invested in Indian software industry and it is not that much cheap in India for software development. Even though a lot of people are into information technology in India, it does not mean that all of them are qualified, a lot of fake people out there in software firms especially from a state named Andra Pradhesh.
      As somebody mentioned in same article, there are good software engineers in eastern Europe too. I got a number of chance to work with people from East Germany, Ukraine etc, they also very good in software.
       
      Software is not an area where people can work for just 8 hours and enjoy the weekends with family or girl friend. It is so important to update our skills up to date so that each of us will be good enough and ahead of others for a job.
      A number of times, I came across situation where serverside.com publish potential subjects like this. I think it is not worth enough for their dignity to continue these kind of subjects by understanding how people cry here without a proper sense.

      It will be better to discuss something technical instead of these kind of subjects

    Thanks
    T.Q
  16. Age has nothing to do with qualifications[ Go to top ]

    I honestly have to disagree with your statement that 'If I am a programmer or Developer at that age that means I am not good for that job'.

    How do you quantify age with qualification? This statement is so obviously discriminating it's pathetic.

    I've worked with, hired and worked for many different people from all over the world. To rank someone higher just because they work long hours is ludicrous !
    My philosophy is have fun, work hard and get the job done, in that priority. Who wants to work the weekends when you can spend it with family and friends instead?

    Get a life T.Q.

    And, BTW, everyone has an opinion.. Why not listen?.After all, you may just learn something...
  17. Age has nothing to do with qualifications[ Go to top ]

    I think, somewhere I have learned that human brain cells are age sensitive and they get weak as people getting aged. I learned somewhere else, men's DNA growth is maximum up to the age of 18 and for women it is 22. So that is the reason behind human being go to school in early age and develop their skills.
    So most of the activities of an individual human being it directly proportional to his age. It goes like schooling => graduation => entry level job(Such as programmer)=> Developer =>Team leader=> Architect => Technology specialist => Domain specialist etc. I thought, it is applicable to your buddy's case too.

       Anyway, I just mentioned, what I know, you don't need to take it as a referrence, you can work as a programmer at the age of 56,in that case please learn how to control your feeling when you report to a junior person.
  18. Age has nothing to do with qualifications[ Go to top ]

    I learned somewhere else, men's DNA growth is maximum up to the age of 18 and for women it is 22. So that is the reason behind human being go to school in early age and develop their skills.

    So sitting around doing nothing for 50 years and then going to school and developing skills isn't possible because of genetics? I thought it was because there was purely an advantage to getting an early start on your education, such as being able to use it during your life rather than dying shortly after you completed it.
  19. Another dumb racial observation.[ Go to top ]

    Easy thing to say in current times when the indistry is shrinking.

    Chameleon
  20. <Brad Galyean>
    My philosophy is have fun, work hard and get the job done, in that priority. Who wants to work the weekends when you can spend it with family and friends instead?
    </Brad Galyean>

    I totally agree with you. The only thing I would add to that is - get the job done <strong>and well</strong>.

    <Brad Galyean>
    Get a life T.Q.
    </Brad Galyean>

    T.Q. Have you ever heard Sherly Crow's "All I wanna do"?
  21. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

    "Software is not an area where people can work for just 8 hours and enjoy the weekends with family or girlfriend." LOL.
    But in somehow you are right. I have seen Indian people (IT People) working 10,12 and even 14 hours for the same salary, no overtime paid. Which comes back to the point of cheap labour vs quality of work. Remember, I have been in Bangalore not just for 2,3 weeks... I spent the longest 10 months of my life there and I guess I can be very objective. (taking into account I am from SouthAmerica)
  22. Dude,
       You r the guy from the drug dealer's land :). Funny, what kind of software job you had in Bangalore??. I never heard anybody have any kind of brain from your south America!!. Are you doing some drug deals in Bangalore?
    Just curious, Can you name some good software professionals from South America, never seen even one after working for a long time in this field?

    Anyway, what i mean by my previous post is, software is a job for people who has an attitude to learn and do more things, other way it is a responsible job and not something like you guys do in Taco bell. I hope you understand this explanation.
  23. rude and ignorant[ Go to top ]

    TQ: I never heard anybody have any kind of brain from your south America!!. Are you doing some drug deals in Bangalore?

    Software and technology are fairly pervasive in South America. Your comments about drugs and lack-of-brain are bigoted and ignorant.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  24. Dude,

    > You r the guy from the drug dealer's land :). Funny, what kind of software
    >job you had in Bangalore??. I never heard anybody have any kind of brain from
    >your south America!!. Are you doing some drug deals in Bangalore?
    > Just curious, Can you name some good software professionals from South America,
    >never seen even one after working for a long time in this field?
    >
    > Anyway, what i mean by my previous post is, software is a job for people who has
    >an attitude to learn and do more things, other way it is a responsible job and
    >not something like you guys do in Taco bell. I hope you understand this
    >explanation.

    Yeah, this is the american (US) talk. No surprise the rest of the world wants to blow you up.
    I am brazilian, and I do know many good software pros. You may think South America is only a jungle full of monkeys and drug dealers, but its far from the truth. Here in Brasil we have one of the most advanced computer bank systems in the world, and we are the first country using eletronic voting boxes, and there is much contribution from brazilians in open source software projects.

    And, Taco bell sells MEXICAN food - if you don't know, Mexico is in NORTH America.

    The US surely have very intelligent people. Surely you are not one of them.
  25. Let them have it[ Go to top ]

    You can't outsource intangible benefits, period. That means that while in the short term, the foreigners may bet getting these jobs, it's not a big deal. Most foreigners will never earn the kind of money that their American counterpart made. This is because the "soft skills" and other things that turn a young developer into a mature executive cannot be faked. You have to be born with the talent that is required to take it to the next level.

    Once again, we are seeing various opinions on this message board where it is quite obvious who will always be stuck as the developer for life. And that's exactly how we want it, let those who are willing to do the grunt work for a measly 30K or less a year do it. The others who are losing their jobs now will be making 100K+ in better jobs within a few years.

    That's the way the world works,

    ~Scott/Larry
  26. Doable?[ Go to top ]

    I would like to say that as a CEO of a software company it makes perfect
    sense for me to outsource software development to achieve economies of
    scale just like outsourcing apparel etc. etc. to achieve better results
    at cheaper rate, Government/lawsuits have no business intervening in my
    Business. If we aspire to keep making six figure salaries in the US we will
    need to excel far beyond our present capability and for that we need to push
    ourselves beyond the reach of rest of the world at least when it comes to
    Software, doable?
  27. limit to everything[ Go to top ]

    What you say sounds logical enough, but human history shows that we need laws and regulations to create a just and healthy society. There has to be a limit to everything.
  28. Discrimination again?[ Go to top ]

    You can't outsource intangible benefits, period. That means that while in the

    > short term, the foreigners may bet getting these jobs, it's not a big deal.
    > Most foreigners will never earn the kind of money that their American
    >counterpart made. This is because the "soft skills" and other things that
    >turn a young developer into a mature executive cannot be faked. You have
    > to be born with the talent that is required to take it to the next level.

    Scott, what do you mean by this? that only americans have the talent? Sorry to inform you, but you're wrong... The biggest difference between developed countries and the third world is not talent, but access to school. Developed countries has more higher level workers than third world ones, more universities, etc.
  29. Yeah, what he said[ Go to top ]

    Developed countries has more higher level workers than third world ones, more universities, etc.

    That's exactly what I mean.

    An American company located in America that services for the most part other American companies will naturally want to have -- you guessed it -- American workers in the positions that require high-level skills. Now obviously this is not "all-encompassing". For example, I have interfaced with some extraodinarily talented Indians, Chinese, etc etc in high-level positions. But ALL of them, I repeat, ALL of them, have one very important thing in common --- They have adapted to the western culture quite well. For example, they have all learned the language to the point where their speech is well-understood and cannot be distinguished from other English speakers except perhaps for a slight accent.
    I know that some may not view this as a big deal, but tell me, how well would it go over if an American born worker was to get a job in Bangalore, and this American worker did not speak Indian very well? Do you think that the Indians in Bangalore would say "Aww, how cute...". No, there would instantly form a seperation of respect between the American and the Indian. This is what is happening here. The only reason that the American employers do not care that foreigners don't speak properly is because they have no plans for the foreigners to ever do something requiring that skill. And I'm saying that we should feel fine about that. It opens up a niche market that only North American people and those foreigners that actually care about promotion will survive in.

    I'm all for globalization. The right people will take the right jobs. Like it or not, that is what happens, and although some edge-cases may write back to this post saying "Hey, I know how to speak English, and I dress well and all that!!", my answer to you is "Great, you are part of the niche market. Congratulations.". The other 95% of the outsourced talent will never make it past their lot in life as developers. This is guaranteed.

    Do you see anybody running the executive ranks at Nike that started out sewing Air Jordans in Beijing for 10 cents a day? No, you do not.

    ~Scott/Larry.

    ~Scott/Larry
  30. Re: Yeah, what he said[ Go to top ]

    Hi Scott/Larry,
    I agree with most of what you have said. But a few of comments.

    <snip>
    It opens up a niche market that only North American people and those foreigners that actually care about promotion will survive in.
    </snip>
    This niche market you speak about does not care for the nationality of a person - it cares only for some specific qualities of that person, ones which you have elaborated elsewhere on TSS. Being North American does not automatically make one eligible, just as being Indian does not make one ineligible. Please dont give false hopes to people - you never know who might take you seriously :-)

    <snip>
    Do you see anybody running the executive ranks at Nike that started out sewing Air Jordans in Beijing for 10 cents a day?
    </snip>
    I can imagine - an executive at Nike Beijing :-) Scott, you start with a faulty assumption that all consumption is done in US - might be right for now, but likely that might change in future. If Microsoft wants to sell its software in India, they might likely ask an Indian to head those operations, right? (they actually did, I think!).

    <snip>
    The other 95% of the outsourced talent will never make it past their lot in life as developers. This is guaranteed.
    </snip>
    This seems to be out of context. Can you please elaborate what "gaurentees" that statement - especially the figure 95? As far as I can imagine, the precentage of outsourced talent that "rise" from the developer jobs to executive ranks (no offence to developers - I am one too, but making a point here :) would be roughly the same number as in US.

    Elsewhere on this thread you mention,
    <snip>
    Oh wait, we already did that between '95 and '01, when we walked home with more money in one month than any of these foreigners walk away with in a year.
    </snip>
    ... which might be less than what beggars make in Luxembourg :) (or wherever the per capita is higher, I somehow have this impression Luxembourg have a high per capita).
    The point is please dont look at the absolute value of the money you make - instead look at their *relative* difference.
    Programmers in India are not starving because they take much lesser money than their American counterparts - they enjoy as much relative wealth in their society as their American counterparts do in the US.

    Peace,
    Binil
  31. Discrimination again?[ Go to top ]

    How come Honda's and Toyota's of Japan make better selling cars than the classical US gaints like Ford? How come Japan makes the best electronic stuff? Of late, we have had most successful executives of Indian origin - heading top companines in the wonderland of business - US. How come, some unknown Indian called Premji is one of the richest - by getting software written in India. Mind you, it is all in opportunities, opportunities and opportunities. I thank US business and current slump for creating more of these for us. We are not a bunch of developers sweating it out. We will be a force to reckon with and choice place to get your technology-ware developed.
  32. Just curious, Can you name some good software professionals from South

    >America, never seen even one after working for a long time in this field?

    hum ... you probably never heard anything about Linux, do you?
    Marcelo Tosatti is the linux kernel maintainer.
    http://www.marcelothewonderpenguin.com/

    I worked with people from Spain, Germany, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Japan, India, UK, Australia, Colombia, Canada, US and they were all excellent software professionals.
  33. Longest Months...[ Go to top ]

    As far as the quality of work goes, had there been compromise, Indian IT sector would'nt have sustained for so long. More and more countries are investing in the Indian IT sector. The reason can't just be cheap labour, it's more than that it's quality.

    you mentioned "I spent the longest 10 months of my life there and I guess I can be very objective"........

    I am sure they were the longest 10 months coz' in South America, if you are foreigner you'll would find it even difficult to live that long....
  34. How To Keep Your Job...[ Go to top ]

      There are 100s of multinational firms invested in Indian software industry and it is not that much cheap in India for software development. Even though a lot of people are into information technology in India, it does not mean that all of them are qualified, a lot of fake people out there in software firms especially from a state named Andra Pradhesh.


    Hey dude,
      How come u are generalizing that lot of people from Andhra pradesh are fake.Have you ever worked with Andhra pradesh guys.What is the great assignment u had in your life. What is the experience you had in software and how many andhra guys you saw in ur software life...With out knowing the exact statistics it is shame on your part to give an open statement about particular development group...there are lot of talented guys in andhra pradesh.Don't try to find faults with others..First try to understand how much strong u are in programming...That will help you a lot..

    I wish you all the best,

    REgards,
    S.J.
  35. as my "desi" friends would say!

    I've heard from my Indian friends that in this southern state ("Andra Pradesh"), there isn't anything that money can't buy -- fake degree
    certs, fake experience letters etc. So much so that the US Embassy
    has issued an explicit warning against folks from Andra.

    I also hear that in some of the Andra "castes" you can get up to a
    million $ in dowry (but that's not the point for this discussion) :-)

    Say what you want, you can't deny the facts.
  36. Good attitude[ Go to top ]

    Hi Ted,

    That's a mature, level-headed response to this changing economic situation, and I congratulate you and wish you all the very best.

    Though my name reveals my Indian origins, I'm in the same situation as any First World IT worker. I'm a 40 year old Australian citizen living in Sydney and I too see Australian jobs going to India and other Third World countries, and Australian wages being depressed because of it.

    It is a trend we cannot fight, and perhaps shouldn't. Free Trade is better than protectionism in the long run. As nations and as individuals, we must each look at the things we do best and capitalise on those strengths.

    That said, a certain amount of downward mobility seems inevitable. Yes, we're more experienced programmers, but our employers can hire 3 junior programmers overseas for the same money. It's a hard battle to fight, and wages will have to move down. As Cameron Purdy said, when wages in other countries rise, a certain balance will be achieved, but in the meantiome, it looks as if an entire generation is going to feel the transition pains.

    Let's hope we manage to get through it all without losing our homes, retirement plans and childrens' education.

    Regards,
    Ganesh Prasad
  37. No answers[ Go to top ]

    Let's hope we manage to get through it all without losing our homes, retirement > plans and childrens' education.


    Exactly. I have no issues with Indian programmers working to get their piece of the of the pie, and so I’m not against IT work going to India.

    The backlash is fuelled by fear, and I can identify. I’m a young North American, and I worry that being intelligent and educated may not be enough anymore. Rather than living in North America being an advantage, the high labour costs and cost of living may be more of a curse.

    And while I’m fairly confident in my ability to find good paying work, what about the average Joe in North America? Reasonably well-educated, but not an elite? The wealthy and very talented will always do well, but I think the increasing income inequality in the U.S., and to a lesser extent Canada, shows that there’s a big segment of society that’s losing ground. It is this segment that will be bitter and vulnerable to populist hate mongering.

    I also agree with the chap who said having a world-wide level playing field (i.e. similar living standards world-wide) will fix this. Sure, but how long will that take?

    As a last point, it’s up to us to improve the level of education, job training (and re-training) and to have some kind of coherent industrial policy. Unfortunately the States is putting it’s money into bombing Iraq instead. It’s not the Indians or Sun to blame, it’s our governments and by extensions ourselves. But it’s never too late to start fixing things.
  38. Ganesh Prasad wrote about the right attitude towardes "downward" mobility:

    > A certain amount of downward mobility seems inevitable. Yes, we're more
    > experienced programmers, but our employers can hire 3 junior programmers
    > overseas for the same money. It's a hard battle to fight, and wages will
    > have to move down. As Cameron Purdy said, when wages in other countries
    > rise, a certain balance will be achieved, but in the meantiome, it looks as
    > if an entire generation is going to feel the transition pains.

    In addition to your reasoning, the outsourcing can be considered as a TACTICAL win-win situation in these hard economy times. Alas, if we all understand it this way, there won't be any rebuttal of any kind!

    However, I do not think this TACTICAL win-win situation can achieve the kind of economic "balance" as you and Cameron wrote about (inducing). The act of outsourcing software jobs outside of USA does not mean that the US companies can "create and impact" the affluent society.

    Call me pessimistic, but the third-world poverty levels outdo the affluent people becuase of sheer population growth. Otherwise why would the third-world generation still strive to get a US job? Sometimes, it the infrastructure is also a limiting factor with regards to how much you want to outsource.

    Correct me if I am missing something? We still need a strategic solution to bring the US economy back to the good old times!

    Regards,
    /Ravi
  39. Loyalty ???[ Go to top ]

    How does loyalty figure in here ??? All the companies do that, remember the guys have a company to run. If you get quality at a cheaper price, what's the big deal ? Don't you buy cheaper stuff at the mall ?

    The paln you talk about works well with the rest of the world as well......
  40. Its not just SUN but almost every big company has a office in "India" & "China"

    @ American Express, Dell computers, At & T, Microsoft, Oracle, General Electric, Nokia, SONY & many many more - all have moved major chunk of laborious work mostly development to India in last 3 years. To be truthful (Not racist or mean ) if china had more people fluent in english, all these companies would have gone to china instead of india as labor is cheaper in china than in india. ( again - i m just saying the fact & dont mean to be nationalist or racist or have no personal feelings against anyone, any country. )
    @ Intel opened its new & biggest chip making plant to "Mexico"

    @ Every damn non edible thing - electronics, office supplies, garments, plastic toys .. everything sold in US markets is made in China.

    @ Japan sells more cars in the US than in Japan itself.

    Besides some steel & some farming , what is made in the USA which generates a lot of jobs for we americans.
      I think we should look into this fact also. I totally agree that a lot of Visa holders have come in the country & taken over our job market. But our Presidents ( clinton allowed 19500 visa holders per year )/ law makers have been doing it for so many years now. Just becoz we have economic problems we start thinking of this. When it was Dot com boom, no one bothered. Infact , number of visa holders coming to the US from outside has declined by 67% last year ( 2002 ). Anyway ...

    Lets hope everything settles down ASAP ( including the law suit :) )

    Slashdot.com had a posting sometime back ...

    If the cost of living in the US was less
     the labor cost would have been less
       so the avg. salaries would have been less
         so more people from US itself would have been hired by US companies
  41. This is ridiculous. Sun should be able to fire/hire anyone it wants to.
  42. Labor Movement is inevitable[ Go to top ]

    If US and western countries fight for capital and trade movement across national boundaries then labor movement cant be fight back.

    When you complain about Sun not hiring American workers then complain about Sun selling software to other countries. Otherwise it is a hypocrisy.

    Globalisation is inevitable so that American companies can make more money. Same way globalisation is inevitable so that Indian labor can make more money.

    America has capital. India has man power. Any company will need both of this to make profit. That is a very simple calculation.

    Stop complaning about it. Globalisation is a sword with two edges it hurts third world small scale farmer and first world programmer.
  43. Labor Movement is inevitable[ Go to top ]

    If US and western countries fight for capital and trade movement across national boundaries then labor movement cant be fight back.

    I prefer to look at it in a different light. Instead of asking why US and other Western workers are so expensive, I want to know how we can help get the rest of the world to a similar standard of living and salary level so that competition is back in balance a little bit.

    Years ago, it was the textile and manufacturing jobs going from Europe to the US. Over time, the economies balanced such that the wages (and standards of living) came within a certain explainable distance of each other. Then the same thing started happening to the US (jobs going to Japan, Mexico, etc.)

    We shouldn't be trying to stop jobs from being created elsewhere ... the best long-term strategy for raising the (for example) US standard of living is to decrease the differential between it and other less-developed economies. In economics, as with physics, it is that differential that will seek to balance itself. Maybe it's hurting so much more now because it's been put off so long.

    I wish there were a better way to create jobs elsewhere without losing some here, but there is a certain inevitability to it.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  44. Well said[ Go to top ]

    Hi Cameron,
    Very well said!

    <snip>
    I wish there were a better way to create jobs elsewhere without losing some here, but there is a certain inevitability to it.
    </snip>
    I am an Indian programmer and right now I do enjoy the fruits of the some of these jobs moving here. But I can imagine a similar scenario when these jobs start moving again - to places with even cheaper labour.

    Peace,
    Binil
  45. Labor Movement is inevitable[ Go to top ]

    <Cameron>
    We shouldn't be trying to stop jobs from being created elsewhere ... the best long-term strategy for raising the (for example) US standard of living is to decrease the differential between it and other less-developed economies. In economics, as with physics, it is that differential that will seek to balance itself. Maybe it's hurting so much more now because it's been put off so long.
    </Cameron>

    Hallelujah!

    To this I can add only that IMHO QUALITY software labour will be in high demand no matter where you live. There just not that many of us who really understand software development - its hard :)
  46. e-mail id of "Cho Ang"[ Go to top ]

    This is for Cho-

    Can I've your e-mail id where in I can send a mail. By the way mine's is vijshy at yahoo dot com and can respond.
  47. I do not understand why in all this "free trade globalization" I'm still not able to see an Italian movie in an American DVD player. I know they have a different country code, but I do not know why. Maybe there is something where American companies want boundaries and something where they don't (if that something hurts their interests). What can a single individual do against the power of a private company like SUN? At least in America there is still enough freedom he can try to sue them.
  48. why not just.....[ Go to top ]

    My reaction,well,why not just starting to brush up your knowledge and trying to refresh your skill sets instead of complaining over your company again and again? Yes,companies are difnitely a profit-driven entity,they are trying to do everything to make profit,more profit and more and more profit.Come on,that's the way they go,just imagine you can change this rule someday if you can make the Sun lift from west side.OK,under this situattion,why not just trying to make you indispensable and more valuable to the company?I don't think the greedy employer would lay off you if you really give them such that feeling.
    The more you learn the more competitive you would be,that's always the universal gospel
  49. Programmers are way too passive when it comes to asserting their rights. Its time to start fighting back.

    Sure, it is the essence of our capitalist system for corporations to extract maximum work for as little money as they can get away with. But does that mean that we should just passively stand by and let the greedy capitalists win? No way! Is it our job to protect our interests and fight back using any means necessary.

    All these ideological arguments about people needing to brush up their skills is bullshit. Sure, brushing up skills is a good thing. But so is unionizing and filing law suits. We have laws to protect us. Why not use them in the same way that corporations use laws to their advantage?

    And there's no question that software companies are violating H1B laws all over the place. These laws are there to not only protect us but also the American economy. It is time we start enforcing these laws: no hiring H1Bs when their plenty of Americans who need work and are equally qualified. It is within our collective interest to do so. And who cares if a few the fat cats make less money.
  50. Fine[ Go to top ]

    Fine, but doesn't a company have the right to hire the best person for the job? How are you going to prove to the American government that the three young Indians replacing the one older American are not better for SUN? SUN has the right to do that.

    The punishment you speak of should be done in the form of of demanding unbelievably high rates of income for our services while the market for our skills is still ripe.

    Oh wait, we already did that between '95 and '01, when we walked home with more money in one month than any of these foreigners walk away with in a year.

    ~Scott/Larry
  51. What a reverse of trend!!!

    There were times when people used to think 'DONOT WORK HARD. WORK SMART' is an intelligent slogan. Not any more. In today's scenario what needs to be followed is 'WORK HARD and WORK SMART both'.

    The software industry is shifting towards Indian people because, most of them 'WORK HARD and WORK SMART both'. Remember, they are not just cheap labour, they are cheap QUALITY labour.

    Any software company which is willing to grow and spread it's wings has to come to these people. In my opinion, it is only a coincidence that many of these people are Indians. No company can afford to have that kind of partiality. After all, you are doing business to make money.
  52. The moment i saw this thread, i knew it would degenerate into a nonsense discussion (just see the last few posts). And i also think this was pretty obvious.

    Request that we stick to technical discussions alone.

    Thanks.
  53. Let me start by saying that I do not think that nationality has any bearing on the potential programming skills of an individual, and I have to say that anyone taking this point of view should not be surprised to find themselves branded as a racist. English speaking individuals obviously have a slightly unfair advantage in that the majority of software, programming related books, etc come out in English language versions first, sometimes many months before versions in other languages (if ever).

    However, there are a number of factors which make me wonder whether outsourcing the programming element of a software project to developers in another country actually delivers value for money, even with the potentially much cheaper labour costs:

    1. Communication is vital. One of the main factors that determines whether a project succeeds or fails is whether those that hold the business knowledge can communicate this successfully to those that must implement the code. Methodologies like XP succeed because they stress the importance of this. Numerous studies have been done that show the most effective means of communication is face-to-face, and that amongst the worst is communicating via paper documents. Therefore projects outsourced overseas will always be at a major disadvantage compared to those that are carried out on-site. (Also time differences between countries also mean that developers may be sat waiting for answers to their questions for a day every time – this can add up.)

    2. All parties involved must speak the chosen language of communication completely fluently. Misunderstandings and ambiguities are a major cause of project failure. So why add potential language barriers? (I must add that I have worked with non-native English speakers who spoke excellent English – probably technically better than mine – but I think this is only true for people who have spent a large amount of time in an English speaking country.)

    3. More is not always better. Several programmers are not necessarily more productive than one. This totally depends on the skills of the individuals involved, the quality of their work, and their productivity. Having more programmers working on a project will increase the amount of management and integration work required (which can be a large cost), and will often decrease quality. Just because you can get x programmers for the price of one does not mean you will get more productivity for your money.

    I have had personal experience of refactoring projects outsourced to developers in other countries and my opinion is that it usually does not work that well. In my experience the code produced has not been of particularly high quality and has always required major refactoring/rewriting to meet the requirements (N.B. I am not slurring the developers involved – quality control is down to their company, and I think many consultancies throw under-qualified developers onto projects in all countries). IMO the total cost of these projects would have been lower, and the quality higher had the development all been carried out in-house.

    I have had similar feedback from friends involved in similar situations so I am certainly not alone in my views. I think the major problem is the poor understanding of management about the complexities of software development. Indeed I heard the following quote from a friend whose MD addressed the staff “Now the business requirements have been written and signed-off all the hard work has been done. Now it is just up to the programmers to implement the requirements which is the easy part.” And apparently he was not joking.

    Another quote I heard concerned outsourcing overseas: “Well software projects always come in late and don’t meet requirements – at least if we outsource them overseas they will be cheap.”

    This seems to be the crux of the issue: Until management wake up to the real issues involved in software development I think there will be pressure from them to try and drive down the cost of the producing code to that of other production line type tasks, leading to them trying out alternatives like outsourcing overseas. However, producing code is not like producing clothes, trainers, etc. Software development is not even like civil engineering (although I think it amusing how many articles seem to like to suggest that software engineering has much to learn from it). Developers are not just throw-away resources, they are THE most important part in software development equation and management really need to start taking seriously the “people are our greatest asset” line that they love to spout.

    <T Q>
    entry level job(Such as programmer)=> Developer =>Team leader=> Architect => Technology specialist => Domain specialist
    <T Q/>

    IMO this type of thinking is also at the route of poor software. The idea that you graduate away from producing code as you get more experience seems to me to be completely nonsensical. Much better the idea touted in XP that everyone produces code. This way the people with vast experience can improve the quality of code and mentor more junior programmers. Being a senior/lead developer on a project should be treated as one of the most prestigious roles not as someone a long way down the hierarchy beneath team leader / project manager in terms of respect.

    (Just to clarify: My comments here regard outsourcing overseas the programming aspect of business application type projects where the business knowledge is contained in-house as this is what I have experience of. Therefore my comments do not apply to non business application type projects, where the requirements are well-understood, or where there the business knowledge contingent is also based overseas on-site with the programmers.)

    Regards,
    Lawrie
  54. a minor comment ..[ Go to top ]

    A few years ago i worked in spain for a big 5 consultancy. They were acting as integrators for another european company. I joined as a senior on contract. I almost cried when i saw the code, the architecture, the lack of comments, the lack of documantation etc, and guess where this product came from and who were maitaining it ? India.

    I myself am indian, so no need for useless flames etc. I have yet to encounter an indian programmer with good programming skills or knowledge of architectures.
  55. a minor comment ..[ Go to top ]

    You must be too good to consider others not worthy. I'd like to hire. But again you happen to be an Indian. So sorry about that! Ha! How do you like that?

    What you said doesn't make sense at all.

    I buy chineese made products in the US, but then they are cheap and for the price I pay it is not of good quality even. So do i hate all chineese for this? Go take a walk!

    When will this nonsense stop? There are all kinds of people in this world. In today's globalization, there are bound to be skills available from every part of the globe. Think about it..
  56. Hello everyone,

    First of all: I'm an afghan citizen living in Hamburg/Germany and I'm the CEO of a small application development company.

    This is my story of outsourcing software development (to a country in eastern europe):
    A couple of years ago I met a guy from Yugoslavia and he offered me to do some programming work for me in his country. The money he demanded was too little for me to resist, so I agreed and we gave it a try with a few smaller projects.

    He was unexperienced when it came to java programming, but he learned *very* quickly. For the first months _we_ had to define the architecture of the application and let him (and a few others that he later hired) do only the implementation. They didn't only work for little money (compared to Germany) but he also worked A LOT, was very reliable and "into it". He even started taking german courses, to simplify the communication and now we got to the point, that we can send him concepts in german language and he understands almost 95% of it correctly. If there is any doubt we get an email or a note (in the web-based communication system that we set up) to solve those issues.

    Although the first months were a little stressy and a lot of communication happened I never regret starting business with them to outsource some of our projects.

    If you guys want good software developed for little money, then you need to invest some time and a few night-shifts into it (to get the communication up and running). You don't get anything for free & especially not all at once...

    --Rias
  57. Is it not the same as all others areas of life and professionalism. There will always be certain persons who ride in on the backs of the hardworking and truthful ones amoung us, and in some cases these people are the ones with the huge salaries, IT contracting springs to mind....BUT no matter what side you are on, what nationality you are or experience you have had, there will always be someone who can prove you wrong or make you look like you are saying something that you actually arent.

    Hopefully this thread wont turn into a gossip session like ... "I once worked with this indian guy/german guy/US guy and they had no clue" sort of thing.

    Any job position should be filled with someone who can be checked out, validate their claims both on paper and with answers face to face to some pertinent questions...
  58. the ugly head raises again..[ Go to top ]

    Many advocates foreign aid - but no single country I know of (I could be wrong) reach the United Nations goal of 1% of the national budget.

    Far better than foreign aid would be to ditch the trade barriers that the rich countries set up to protect their own industries - the best way to help the developing countries.

    Definition of hypocrisy,

    "The false profession of desirable or publicly approved quality, beliefs, or feelings, especially a pretense of having virtues, moral principals, or religious beliefs, that one does not really possess"

    Example: Give 0.1% in foreign aid and at the same time put up trade barriers against the same country you are pretending to help..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  59. Great points.

    Currently we are looking to outsource some Sieble work to India at my current place. The whole thing looks great on paper in terms of numbers but I think managers have very little idea of the heartache and man hours that will be envolved in getting the process to work.

    David
  60. Lawrie,

    Never read something more accurate (that fits with my experience:-)). I heard only about failed outsourced projects (by itself this doesn't mean much but I'm hearing more and more the same story). It seems that outsourcing only works for testing(beyond my imagination why). Even cooperation spread between american cities needs a lot of face to face. It's really hard to convince somebody from the headquarter that he/she's wrong just by using email or teleconferencing. You'll probably get something like:this morning I discussed this with my colleagues and we agreed that this is the way to go and not yours(I'm quoting from memory)
    And if I may quote an indian friend: "The best indian programmers are here". Well, I can't say the guy is a really modest and humble person:-))) But he might have a point.
  61. Lawrie,

    >
    > Never read something more accurate (that fits with my experience:-)). I heard only about failed outsourced projects (by itself this doesn't mean much but I'm hearing more and more the same story)

    All those in the US who think that software coming out of India is low quality - I am afraid you are just trying to reassure yourself and feel better (at your own peril). Do you think all the MNCs are that dumb to outsource more than $5 billion worth of software from india?Wishful thinking can be dangerous. India will take over the software industry of the world!
  62. isn't it ironic[ Go to top ]

    Am I the only one who thinks it's ironic that someone from the a country that practises a free economy complains about capitalism not working in their favour?

    And as for programmers obtaining US work permits, isn't that just an example of the American dream?
  63. What comes around...[ Go to top ]

    While I'm generally against such lawsuits, I must say it couldn't happen to a more deserving company than Sun, which itself is lawsuit happy when things don't go it's way.
  64. In house IT work.[ Go to top ]

    There is a certain amount of sense for a large company providing "shrink wrapped" software to relocate to where ever it is cheapest for them to do that. Indian is distinguished in being an English speaking and democratic country and this should be seen as a true success story of globalisation, which will lead to rising standards of living in Indian and also as example to other countrys who can follow the Indian model to acheive a greater posperity for their poeple.
    However I don't think Americans or other rich country IT workers should worry about their jobs just yet.. I would guess that the vast majority are working on "small" custom products, where the greatest problem is not the cost of development, but the cost and potential problems of not fully understanding the clients requirements.
    I would estimate that 75% of any given project is spent gaining a clear understanding about what exactly is required of the project, often through prototyping, feedback and response. Now from my experience.. this part is hard enough to get right when someone from outside the company (e.g. a consultant who doesn't understand the poeple, bussiness e.t.c. ) is bourght in to do a task.

    When this person/team engaged to do the work is not only external to the company but in a different country then project failure would seem almost certain.

    We may increasingly work with offshore team members, but there is still a fundamental need to have someone who thinks in a technical manner facing the customers/users and understanding their requirements and helping them to see the technology solutions to their problems, In some projects (quite a few by my reckoning) the "implemenation" may be trivial once the requirements are clear.

    So in summary.. there is still a future for tech in the US and EU, but you should focus on what distinguishes you from an offshore resource, right now that may often be prior experience of systems and the business which will take a few years for offshore teams to acquire, but in the future it will be the ability to have face to face interaction with your users and customers.
  65. I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    Hi everyone,

    Looks like this thread has gone way off topic.

    The question is whether or not Sun used illegal hiring practices.

    The H1B visa program was created to bring in foreign technology professionals that would have the skills that were hard to come by in the domestic "market". When hiring an H1B, there needs to be some "proof" that someone with the same skillset could not be hired within the United States.

    Even though the US government is supposed to check this information, it is very easy to get an H1B because the government folks don't know jack shit about technology (Java, XML, Oracle ....) and whether or not there truly is an American citizen that could not be found with those skills. In addition, there are many cases where a foreign worker has already been found for a position, and the company filing the papers puts extraneous skillsets on the document so that nobody in the US will ever have the same skillsets.

    In Sun's case, they laid of a few thousand workers, while at the same time hired H1Bs to work for them in the US. This is illegal. Why ? Because Sun could have found the required skillsets among the people they fired. As many of you know, if an EXPERIENCED individual is motivated enough, they can learn another form of technology fairly quickly. It would have been fine for Sun to layoff some of them (those that have no valuable skillset - although I find this hard to believe) and "retrain" the others who could learn the new stuff required. But Sun didn't do that. They pretty much did a wholesale replacement of people. This is illegal under US Labor laws and is against the spirit & letter of the H1B laws and provisions.

    If Sun had layed off the 2,000 workers here and had shifted the 2,000 jobs offshore (to India or wherever), then there would be no legal issue at all (although it would still suck for the 2,000 American workers). I'm not debating globalization; if Sun did the above, then there really would be no issue.

    It looks like Sun did break the law (IANAL and just got my opinions from reading various web sites). I hope they do get punished for it (even though I like the company).

    Now ... off topic ... I think the H1B program has outlived its usefulness. With the bust in the technology market, I think it would be sensible to scale down the H1B program. We also have way too many people on the job market right now and I would find it difficult to believe that an American company could not find an American IT worker to fit their needs. For a good read on the H1B program and its "uselessnes", check out : http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.pdf
  66. I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    Mr Raju,

    I know many Indians, who, when they were on H1B visa used to supoort H1B program and used to support any law that would increase the number of visas. Now some of them have got green cards, they are singing a completely different song. I think you belong to this category. How about those people, who did not deserve to be here in the first place (like so many idios from Andhra), could make it to this place and got their Green Cards? Shouldn't that junk be dumped to the same place where they came from.
  67. Wrong idea[ Go to top ]

    Mr Raju,

    >
    > I know many Indians, who, when they were on H1B visa used to supoort H1B >program and used to support any law that would increase the number of visas. >Now some of them have got green cards, they are singing a completely different >song. I think you belong to this category. How about those people, who did not >deserve to be here in the first place (like so many idios from Andhra), could >make it to this place and got their Green Cards? Shouldn't that junk be dumped >to the same place where they came from.

    First of all, I don't belong to any of the categories you describe.

    Yes, there are people in the IT industry who don't belong there (black, white, Indian , Asian etc. and even some from Andhra Pradesh) and they hopefully get weeded out. You obviously have some issue with people from Andhra Pradesh - just get over it.

    Finally, this is about the law and its effects on the US labor market. Its not about stopping immigration. I am obviously not anti-immigration or anti-Indian (heck look at my name; besides my family came to the US 25 years ago). What I am against is abusing the H1B program and thereby harming people who already work in the US.

    The original program was designed to fill a void in the US labor market. That void no longer exists. Would it not make sense to change the law ? This is a very rational argument (read the link I posted before for a detailed analysis of the situation). This is not a fight about stopping Indians from getting into the US and all that bullshit. If a foreign worker is highly qualified and has a rare skillset (quantum cryptography or whatever) then let him in by all means. All I'm saying is that if there are 5 US workers (Citizens/Greencard holders/other H1Bs looking for a job) who have the same skillset and can do the work, then don't you think that one of them should be doing it ?

    If you want to debate this, please do so. At least be rational about it; and please don't assume you know anything about me.
  68. I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    You sound like another racist ... how do you categorize Andhrites as somebody who dont deserve...
  69. I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    I agree with your assessment.

    A few years ago, I met people who were on a student visa. After they graduate with an accounting degree, they tried to get jobs and ask the company to sponsor their H1. The company indicated that the only way they can sponsor H1 is if an add for the position goes unfilled for a certain amount of days, meaning the skill set cannot be filled by US people.

    I don't know why, but in the technology sector, these rules didn't apply.
  70. I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    A few years ago I did some phone interviews for a programmer. We could not find anyone for love or money. In the end we had to make do with people who could hardly type.

    My point is the demand was so high that lawyers found ways to make the H1B process quicker and the INS who was swamped took the money and signed the visa's. This was not the first or last time a labour law has been bent in the name of doing business. No one cared because we needed to get work done. Of course now that demand is lower people are shouting that the law should be tightened up.

    Same issue for illegal workers. When times are good people look the other way because they are doing jobs that can't be filled. When times are bad people want them to be thrown out cause they are taking our jobs.

    Got to laugh.
  71. Re: I think we are off the topic now[ Go to top ]

    A very good point, Raju! Like I said in a post before, this is not about globalization and stuff, it's about alleged unfair employment practices.

    Radu
  72. On a personal note I would like to point out as a Brit who has been working on a H1B for the last 5 years that people generally just presume that H1B's are a one way street where we take US jobs and money. People tend to forget that the deal is that like anyone else I pay my taxes and unlike anyone else I have very limited individual rights.

    I have also noticed that people tend to be a lot less hostile to someone like me on a H1B from a English speaking western european coutry then they do my Indian H1B friends.

    David
  73. Wake up and smell the coffee[ Go to top ]

    I do not think that American companies want to help countries like India when they outsource their software development there. They are just taking advantage of a less fotunate country and the need of people there to survive. And if it is true that they are willing to work 12/14 hours per day, that is encouraging slavery.

    In this globalization matter we should fight in order to offer everyone the same quality of life and not just saying that it is a natural corse of business to restabilish slavery in today's time.

    No matter what color or nationality you are you should have the same opportunities and it is not right that you are risking your job because there is someone out there that is willing to work more hours and for less money than you.

    This is not evolution, this is devolution. This is what factories and farms used to do years and years ago. (Rent John Ford's "The Grapes of Wrath" to refresh your memory).

    If do you think that this situation is threatening you, then you should fight it. It is about the quality of your life.

    Now that we live in a better world because "comunism is dead", we should fight against extreme capitalism too. It is just as bad as comunism was.
    In extreme capitalism money is more important than people's lives ... and when your life is in danger you fight back.
  74. I my opinion hiring from countries that do not have strick labour laws is affecting coutries with good social security.Let me explain.
    An MNC with offshore center in India can send a developer to say western europe and make him work for some time and then send him back to India and fire him WITH OUT ANY LEGAL hassle.While the mnc can not do that to a native EU nationals(I am talking about only EU).
    It is not jus exploiting the poor state of third world countries but it screws up the native ppls labour law benefits,because if they(MNC) can bring ppl from India and make them work at will and send them back , why should they hire local ppl ...
  75. It's funny how in America we have all these opportunities but everyone just wants to work at a stable place. Unfortunately, times are a'changin and you're going to end up working 80 hours a week for your stable job. You need to start your own business. Accept the fact it may not be in software. Accept the fact you may make a whole lot more running your own thing, than if you were making nifty software. Accept the fact that you may have to sell underwear, but become a millionaire.

    I'm obviously not there, but that's where I want to be eventually. I love software, but just because it's nice and shiny doesn't mean it'll help me pay the bills the best.

    Don't wait to get fired. Get a plan, work the system for your own advantage.
    Steve
  76. ...while people in Europe drink wine, enjoy their lives and plan their 6 week holidays. You don't have anything else then work, so loosing a job is a disaster for you.
    Wake up and start living!
  77. reply[ Go to top ]

    reply
  78. Balance[ Go to top ]

    The problem is not the "indians" but the money grubbing Ivy League business graduates from coporate America without any long-term foresight. They cannot grasp the essence of education: the art of balance.
  79. In other news....[ Go to top ]

    Blacksmiths protested against the increasing mechanization of the metal-shaping industry.
  80. Let's face it: when compared to amangers and sales people, programmers are cheap.


    So why don't Sun etc import some Indian managers? Does having brown skin not make them as good as American managers?
  81. The right man for the job.....isnt that the norm.....not the right nationality or lowest salary group.

    I would guess that SUN's quality will suffer as a result
  82. Here is the detailed report. Ironically Mr. Scott is in india right now and here are the details

    http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/mar/21sun.htm
  83. If you talk about globalisation it means you can produce it at one place and sell it in another place. It crosses national boundries. Bcos of this no MNC can claim that it belongs to any particular country. So Sun microsystems is not a US company. So US citizens cant claim that it has a right to be employed by SUN. SUN has some production capability under US geography. But it sells that product which is manufactured at that production center to all geographic area.

    If you want to understand about this check the link

    http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/investor/annual_reports/sun_ar02.pdf

    It gives the 2002 fiscal year report for SUN. Goto page number 29 in that report to see the net revenues by geographic area.

    SUN net revenue is 12.5 billion USD. In that only 5.8billion comes from US. Rest comes from other countries. So SUN makes nearly 50% of its money from other countries. How can American citizen can cliam an exclusive right for employment by SUN?

    My argument is if we talk about globalisation you have to talk about Capital, product and LABOR movement. And no MNC can claim a national boundry. They belong to whole world.But western countries and its citizen think it belongs to them. That is wrong.

    I think WTO needs to take care of this. Labor movement should be a right for all countries.
  84. SUN micro system is going to do their business. The old man's law case is going to fly with wind. Sun is going to invest globally and make revenue out of it, as like any other software firms. America is going to attract more talented professionals in future; it is one of the foundations of a capital community. The people who is supporting the 56 years old man's case and cry against others are nothing but just remaining dust of old 19th century ideas. SUN or any company going to fire as much as people they wanted and hire as much as they can, it all depends on their business. If i am fired from my job I will try for another one or look for some other job, which will pay my bills. it is nothing worth in crying like 3 years old baby.
       WTO is not ready to accept human intellectual property as a trading item cuz of the strong opposition from developed country such as UK and US. If these kinds of issues comes under WTO, developed nations have to pay a lot of money for the service of intellectual property such a doctor or software programmer they invite or hire or employed from a third world. Some idiots can tell these software offshore business is cuz of cheap labor and struggle for an Indian to find a way to money for food. But those who are sitting in Washington DC, UN and WTO really understand the benefit of using man power from all part of the world for better quality of products. Automobile industry is the best examples to see the advantage of understanding these problems. I have yet to see a good automobile car with made in USA name with a good fuel efficiency and economical, at the same time, made is Japan or made in German cars are damn good and easy to buy and use. Software industry became more popular and advanced cuz of its global participation. I have yet to see software made only by Americans or local people. I have yet to see at least a project with only local peoples. Finally Sun micro system co- founded by a person from India and they have the right to hire and fire anybody at any time. A civilized administration such as one working behind all prosperity of United States of America never going to judge against them cuz they are the people who make business in this world and running this nation to the top of the world.

    No more comments on this thread.
  85. Myths[ Go to top ]

    Young better than old.
    I didn't know Einstein was 10 when he discovered the relativity theory.

    20 hours a day are better than 8.
    If you sleep less than 7 hours a day you are a candidate for diabetes.
    If you find a necessity in more than 8 hours a day, please read a software engineering book. Sometime may be necessary to stay more than 8 hours a day but if it becomes usual you have a problem with your software development process.
    I prefer 8 normal brain hours to 10-12 tired brain hours.
  86. Myths[ Go to top ]

    Actually the human brain really can work for 4 hours a day(don't remeber where I read this). And those 4 hours are scattered during awake time. The rest is BUZZZZZZZZ:-))
  87. Myths[ Go to top ]

    I have lot of American friends who fake their resumes. I also have lot of friends from Andhra who are doing exceedingly well in many software companies.
    Please let us not make generalized abstract statements and hurt anyone.
  88. Myths[ Go to top ]

    Actually the human brain really can work for 4 hours a day(don't remeber where I read this). And those 4 hours are scattered during awake time. The rest is BUZZZZZZZZ:-))


    I agree with you. But in this forum there are ppl who think pushing workers to work 12/14 hours per day and underpaid is cool. This has nothing to do with outsourcing and Indian ppl. This has to do with companies that want to bring the world back in time. Why do you think America is one of the better places to live? Perhaps because America is a civilized country? What does it make a country civilized? Perhaps the quality of life? Firing ppl without a good reason shouldn't be legal in a civilized country. Giving the job to someone else because he is willing to work harder and for less (as a slave) shouldn't be a good reason. It looks like in this forum everyone is ok in loosing a bit of freedom.
    BTW freedom means also to express your idea and let the others do the same. There is no need in offending anybody or in getting offended. Words do not have any bones, and if you understand that they don't do any harm.
  89. Citizens and immigrants are committed to living in the US. Their salaries help pay taxes, they buy homes, they make a long-term contribution to the economic health of their region.

    Hiring visa holders means a large part of the money goes out of the country and out of the economy. The investment in training and skills being acquired also leave the country.

    Moving locations overseas is fair, but it's not right for companies to benefit from the business climate here, yet allow those dollars and skills to leave the economy.

    Where will the US be in fifteen years? Where will our high-tech industries be? What will happen to engineering programs at our universities?
  90. American companies should be aware of the reservation systemin india,
    where not all the programmers working in wipro,tcs and infosys
    do not get real high marks to get into the premier institutions
    where these big companies normally go for walk-in interviews.

    The system there is depending on your caste level in the society,
    you can get that much marks to get into these institutions. while
    people like us even though affected by it, accepted it as it is
    a backlash on earlier sins and mistakes and secondly it is politically
    correct.

    But american companies who take pride in equal opportunity employment
    should take into consideration, while allocating projects.
  91. This mud slinging is SAD[ Go to top ]

    Sun microsystem has the right to hire/fire any one they want with out providing any reason for it. That is the employment law of this land. Now that part is established, they are also required to follow other employment laws of this country.

    In my observation, they (as well most of the other employers who hire H1) seems to have broken the following clauses in the H1-visa regulations.
    1.Hiring an H1 should not adversily affect other employees of the company
    2.H1 should be paid the prevailing wage.
    3.Hiring of an H1 should be announced through a written notice posted in a visible area of the company. The notice also should also include the h1 person's salary- I bet they have not done that.

    Regarding all the mud slinging going on here, I think there are a lot of Indian developers that are very smart because they are the cream of the crop from their country. If you take the cream of the crop here, there are a lot of American developers that are smart too. So my Indian friends should stay away from comparing themselves to the average american and then question their IQ. It is not a fair comparison. Since most of the Indian developers eventually stay here, it is better to assimilate to this society rather than calling names. If you think this society is so bad and the Indian culture is so good then may be you should go back rather than stay around and call names. Remember that the United States existed before the Indian programmers showed up here in the late 90's and will continue to exist with or without them.
  92. This mud slinging is SAD[ Go to top ]

    kris
       When SUN makes money from other countries how can its employment laws will be determined by US alone? That is the argument here. If all the other countries impose a heavy tariff for US products and use that revenue to build its own employement base means will any of the US companies can make so much money?
       When Coco cola started flooding into the Indian market one of the coconut growing state's farmers were drastically affected. They lost the whole market which was drinking coconut water. You know how many farmers would have lost their life in this process? When you talk about your employment, your livelihood think about third world employment also. Your companies, where you work and make money, makes money out of other countries. So dont complain when foreigners get their share of employment from these corporations.
       It is our right to get employed by these companies. Because they make money out of our society also. When you try to avoid this by your country laws, it is matter of time these corporations will change their country identity.
       Bcos of marketing strength western companies can capture the third world market. Same way Indian programmers cost less and deliver more, so they are able to capture the American job market.