Tales From TheServerSide Cartoon - Framework Lock-In

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News: Tales From TheServerSide Cartoon - Framework Lock-In

  1. After somewhat of a hiatus, TheServerSide is pleased to present a new cartoon, entitled 'Framework Lock-In'. Given the plethora of frameworks out there, how do you go about selecting the right one? Does ease of development come with a cost? This cartoon, conceived by Jason Carreira, offers one perspective. Expect to see a regular stream of cartoons on TSS.com in the coming months.

    We're always looking for new cartoon ideas. Feel free to submit your ideas in this thread and we may decide to bring your idea to life!

    Check out Framework Lock-In

    Threaded Messages (104)

  2. Is that guy wielding the JSF ball and chain supposed to be Craig McClanahan? ;)

    http://www.theserverside.com/talks/videos/CraigMcClanahan/CraigBig.jpg
  3. The only difference may be that with JSF, vendors will sell you a wagon to help you carry the load. Without tools, JSF will be completely unmanageable. With tools, JSF may be a bigger ball and chain, but more usable for beginning developers, and more manageable for development. Of course I'm not very keen on the need for the wagon.
  4. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    Look people, I'm a 6 year Java veteran, and I love java. However I think these cartoons do little but support the vision of the community at large, which I might add is the same community that is running java into the ground.

    Spring, struts, and webwork are barely capable frameworks, especially struts. The real downfall of all these frameworks is the lack of integration and support to build a web application. They?re ok for building sites for things like news, but when it comes to full web applications, they suck. Even velocity is a better choice in this instance, and that?s why you see it used in MANY web applications.

    If you think that the best technology (java) is going to win the SUN vs. MS war, then you would be wrong. If you think that MS isn?t making headway into the java/web application world, again you would be wrong. This ?bury our heads in the sand? philosophy from SUN and many in the java community is just sad. It makes me sick to think that Java will only survive if SUN lets go and IBM takes over, but that?s the reality of the situation.

    SUN cannot build a development environment worth paying for. Examples? SWING is overly complicated. EJBs are insanely bloated and not transparent. JSP and taglibs are a joke, take too long to compile, and are prone to serious coding error. Forte for Java was terrible. JDK 1.5 is lame-o in that it supports autoboxing and generics which is mildly useful, but doesn?t support class/method metadata which is freak?in awesome in .NET.

    As for the VB cartoon? I work as a java developer in a company that is 99% MS VB.NET. They run massive dynamic data warehouses for various clients all using VB.NET, and I have to bow to the fact that MS has built a vastly superior development environment than anything available on the Java side.

    Pitch a fit and call me an idiot, but remember I?m on of you guys in the java world. I?m getting tired of watching .NET developers get things done 2-20 times as fast. Something needs to change.
  5. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    The real downfall of all these frameworks is the lack of integration and support to build a web application. They?re ok for building sites for things like news, but when it comes to full web applications, they suck. Even velocity is a better choice in this instance, and that?s why you see it used in MANY web applications.
    I think many of us who build real applications (or even software products) using these frameworks would disagree.
    If you think that the best technology (java) is going to win the SUN vs. MS war, then you would be wrong. If you think that MS isn?t making headway into the java/web application world, again you would be wrong. This ?bury our heads in the sand? philosophy from SUN and many in the java community is just sad. It makes me sick to think that Java will only survive if SUN lets go and IBM takes over, but that?s the reality of the situation. SUN cannot build a development environment worth paying for. Examples? SWING is overly complicated. EJBs are insanely bloated and not transparent. JSP and taglibs are a joke, take too long to compile, and are prone to serious coding error. Forte for Java was terrible. JDK 1.5 is lame-o in that it supports autoboxing and generics which is mildly useful, but doesn?t support class/method metadata which is freak?in awesome in .NET.As for the VB cartoon? I work as a java developer in a company that is 99% MS VB.NET. They run massive dynamic data warehouses for various clients all using VB.NET, and I have to bow to the fact that MS has built a vastly superior development environment than anything available on the Java side.Pitch a fit and call me an idiot, but remember I?m on of you guys in the java world. I?m getting tired of watching .NET developers get things done 2-20 times as fast. Something needs to change.
    Sun may have its problems building software, agreed, but there's a huge community with many MANY companies out there in Javaland. Compare that with the .NET side. .NET has lots of nice features, but Java has a HUGE community building solutions to just about every problem.

    Speaking of environments, I think it's telling that the Intellij guys are building an add-on for VS.NET to give it some of the features of IDEA. Try out IDEA, it's an incredible development environment.
  6. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    I am completely disagreeing that Swing is too complicated. It looks like that for Win addicts who cannot imagine anything but absolute positioning but for building GUIs it is just fine!

    And yes, I agree that building of web UI and Java GUI in general is unnecessary complicated. Building and maintaining of a typical UI in Java should not be more complicated than doing so in Delphi or VB.

    As for struts, webworks, etc. – they are fine but they address symptoms rather than a cause: asynchronous stateless paradigm is wrong one for building rich workflow oriented Uis and applications.

    And I do not think that XUL is right approach too although it is close. I think that soon we will return back to using X-Window server on clients and deliver two types of clients:
    - pure server side state-full application, which run UI on clients;
    - and JavaWebStart type of clients;

    But probably XUL will prevail and after several years we will again confront its limitations and start expanding XUL motors to a full X-Window server implementation under a new name….
  7. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    I think that soon we will return back to using X-Window server on clients and deliver two types of clients:
    - pure server side state-full application, which run UI on clients;
    - and JavaWebStart type of clients;But probably XUL will prevail and after several years we will again confront its limitations and start expanding XUL motors to a full X-Window server implementation under a new name….
    Ability to run full GUI desktop remotely with Linux/Unix always seemed very innovative to me. It does take bandwidth though. How about plain old applets?

    Off-topic: It's interesting to see how quickly discussion moved away from the cartoon which I find funny indeed. Even though some frameworks offer non-intrusive APIs, the entire application inevitable becomes dependent on the framework configuration files and workflow. Good frameworks offer greater flexibility for configuration, and a workflow that is applicable to a greater number of J2EE-oriented applications and use cases. Still the decision which framework to use is an important one and affects many aspects of application development.
  8. But wait....[ Go to top ]

    Even though these frameworks make you feel tied down to a paradigm, there is hope. Macromedia is developing a UI framework that will lay on top of Struts called Flex. I don't look forward to paying for it, but it makes me feel glad that I spent the last 5 months building an e-commerce site with Struts. Like Jason said, there is a community that is working this stuff out. Just have to have some faith, right?

    peas,

    Michael
  9. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    I agree with you on almost everything you have said. Most Java developers have never done anything with .NET but scream their head off about how Java is better than .NET. Sometimes java front-end programming feels like cgi compared to .NET webforms. The market for third party controls in the ASP.NET world makes all the difference for productivity.

    Java needs to stop being about specification and turn to innovation. There is a ditinct difference between the two. When you add new productivity/modeling features at the language level, that is innovation. When you dictate that a developer should implement 5 interfaces, write 3 empty classes, hand-code crazy XML deployment descriptors and such. Talking about deployment descriptors and the much touted deployer role - I have never seen a client pay for a person to play the deployer role. Also, how does the deployment descriptor really achieve ease of change when it is burried three levels deep in jar files?

    Java needs to treat developers as first class citizens and provide standard tools. Sun is not going to get this. Borland or IBM needs to step up to the challenge.
  10. Right on the money[ Go to top ]

    I agree... a client would NEVER pay for a deployer role... heck, it's hard enough to get a graphic artist involved.

    Email me sometime if you get a second at leifashley at yahoo dot com. I have some questions for 'ya. :)
  11. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    Look people, I'm a 6 year Java veteran, and I love java.
    ...
    Even velocity is a better choice in this instance, and that?s why you see it used in MANY web applications.
    The two statements don't match. If you were veteran you would probably notice that Velocity is not an application framework, but a template engine (or rendering technology). But true, it can be used not only in webapp environment.
    Spring, struts, and webwork are barely capable frameworks, especially struts.
    Can you name the capable ones then?
    The real downfall of all these frameworks is the lack of integration and support to build a web application.
    Oracle JDeveloper, Borland JBuilder, Struts Studio and Struts Console provide comprehensive IDE support for visual development with Struts framework. Tapestry and Spring have Eclipse plugins that can be used to create and verify config files, and a set of Ant tasks. SOFIA has excellent IDE integration (IntelliJ IDEA, Eclipse, Dreamweaver) and provides visual development environment. WebWork is integrated with a number of tools.

    Probably J2EE development is not as buttonized as .NET, but:
    (1) there is a good reason for that;
    (2) J2EE world is very dynamic, we seeing new tools, libraries every month.
    SWING is overly complicated.
    In my opinion, Swing itself has improved a whole new level lately. Moreover, there are third-party libraries that make writing GUI in java an easy task.
    Pitch a fit and call me an idiot, but remember I?m on of you guys in the java world. I?m getting tired of watching .NET developers get things done 2-20 times as fast. Something needs to change.
    Don't forget that quality of the design and quality of code both matter. After someone quickly wrote a garbage ASP.NET application, you will need either to hire a legion of new developers to modify original functionality or to keep the original developers at your company for life because no one would ever want (or be able) to understand and maintain the code. So we get quick ROI, but substantial losses or failed rewrite projects afterwards. I am afraid that the last few years have already created a weird management mindset, which accepts this way of development as a norm.
  12. Is is open source ![ Go to top ]

    No Framework is perfect!. A good J2ee Open Source dev adapt the source code to his own application needs. There is no such as thing as Off-the-shelf ready to use framework . The main advantage of being an Open Source developer is to be in command !
  13. Perfectly right, it's easy to make quick and dirty job with VB-like environment but the real cost is that maintenance and evolution will be a nightmare and be very expensive. Quality always pay for software system which are meant to be used for several years. I'm afraid that most of the VB guy's jumping on the dotNet wagon will keep their bad habits. dotNet in itself is not bad at all but tools around it (visual studio) tend to promote lazyness (clic and generate...). I guess main frameworks API are in the process of being consolidated (seep aop alliance for instance, or JDO and hibernate or the collaboration between objectweb and apache...). Frameworks lock-in should not be a problem if your system is properly designed : based on interfaces and patterns to promote loose coupling.
  14. hey, this sounds interesting. can you tell me please which tool/generators you use for that task?

    thanks,
    Joe
  15. Don't forget that quality of the design and quality of code both matter. After someone quickly wrote a garbage ASP.NET application, you will need either to hire a legion of new developers to modify original functionality or to keep the original developers at your company for life because no one would ever want (or be able) to understand and maintain the code. So we get quick ROI, but substantial losses or failed rewrite projects afterwards. I am afraid that the last few years have already created a weird management mindset, which accepts this way of development as a norm.
    If someone quickly writes a JSP garbage application (e.g. putting tons of data access logic code in pages) it would be at least as bad as in ASP.NET. Furthermore, you can be as disciplined and structured as necessary with .NET (check http://www.microsoft.com/practices). Your argument is right: beware of lame developers and naive architectures, but it's true for both Java and .NET, so no intrinsic advantage for Java here.
  16. The two statements don't match. If you were veteran you would probably notice that Velocity is not an application framework, but a template engine (or rendering technology). But true, it can be used not only in webapp environment.


    ... and yet, velocity, which is not even an application framework, is chosen over Spring, Webwork, and Struts taglib/EL features. What does that tell you?
    Can you name the capable ones (web framekworks) then?
    For sure... SOFIA from Salmon LLC is the best I've seen by far. This is exactly how a web application framework should be designed. Personally I don't consider spring, webwork, or struts web application frameworks... they're only "parts" of a framework. SOFIA, ASP.NET, and Coldfusion MX are the only full application frameworks out there.
    Oracle JDeveloper, Borland JBuilder, Struts Studio and Struts Console provide comprehensive IDE support for visual development with Struts framework. Tapestry and Spring have Eclipse plugins that can be used to create and verify config files, and a set of Ant tasks. SOFIA has excellent IDE integration (IntelliJ IDEA, Eclipse, Dreamweaver) and provides visual development environment. WebWork is integrated with a number of tools.
    I've used all of them, and I totally disagree. They supports struts and linking struts actions/forms up, in some cases visually. But this is not the same as visually building a web application as you'd do it in ASP.NET and SOFIA. Those two frameworks are radically different, and considerably better than the bland crop of web frameworks.
    Probably J2EE development is not as buttonized as .NET, but:(1) there is a good reason for that;(2) J2EE world is very dynamic, we seeing new tools, libraries every month
    <br>In my opinion, Swing itself has improved a whole new level lately. Moreover, there are third-party libraries that make writing GUI in java an easy task.
    There is no good reason for JSP/taglibs to act the way they do from the perspective of a developer that needs to get the job done. The J2EE world is TOO dynamic. It's difficult to keep pace with everything, and here's no consistency project to project. Plus the lack of good integration and lack of rapid design tools is THE EXACT REASON many dev shops are picking and/or switching to MS .NET. It sucks. I hate it. I agree with it. There's no reason for it. SUN can do a lot better with java.

    SWING as a base tool sucks, which is why you keep seeing GUI tools and libs to make it easier. Intellij's IDEA form tool is awesome, but it's still rather nasty to work in SWING. I've worked on both sides, and I prefer java. However .NET is far superiour in GUI design tools both on the desktop and web.
    Don't forget that quality of the design and quality of code both matter. After someone quickly wrote a garbage ASP.NET application, you will need either to hire a legion of new developers to modify original functionality or to keep the original developers at your company for life because no one would ever want (or be able) to understand and maintain the code. So we get quick ROI, but substantial losses or failed rewrite projects afterwards. I am afraid that the last few years have already created a weird management mindset, which accepts this way of development as a norm.
    I agree this is becomming the norm, but it's mainly due to java developers, not ASP.NET developers. The average java developer cannot deal with the onslaught of new libs, tools, frameworks, and lack of integration. Projects take a long time, and typically are poorly implemented. Things about it, if I can shave 50% of my development time, like I can with .NET, then I have time to study things like design patters.

    I will agree that if someone hoses up an ASP.NET app, then yea you'd need to refactor it. However same is true of any application. The reality, not guesswork, of the world is that ASP.NET apps can be build faster, with better results, less maintanance, less knowledge, and better performance than java apps. The only thing that's lacking is cross platform support and a large open source community. Fill those gaps, and java is doomed unless IBM saves it. Mono is bridging the cross platform support, and the community is growning.

    The future looks bleak for java.
  17. ... and yet, velocity, which is not even an application framework, is chosen over Spring, Webwork, and Struts taglib/EL features. What does that tell you?
    Velocity cannot be used to replace an application framework. For example, how can you use Velocity to in place of the following Spring's features:
    1. controlling request-response worlflow;
    2. resolution of locale-specific resource bundles;
    3. configuring JNDI resources (like data sources) without any java code;
    4. declarative transaction management;
    5. user input validation, re-displaying the form on error and handling duplicate form submissions, etc, etc.

    I use Velocity only in the presentation layer to display to user values retuned by the service layer. And it is a perfect tool (along with WebMacro and FreeMarker) for this job. I also use XSLT in the presentation layer to generate PDF, and Excel views.
    SOFIA from Salmon LLC is the best I've seen by far. This is exactly how a web application framework should be designed. Personally I don't consider spring, webwork, or struts web application frameworks... they're only "parts" of a framework. SOFIA, ASP.NET, and Coldfusion MX are the only full application frameworks out there.
    Spring and XWork are view agnostic framework, meaning you can either a web front end or rich clients. Can you do this with ASP.NET and Coldfusion MX?
    I've used all of them, and I totally disagree. They supports struts and linking struts actions/forms up, in some cases visually. But this is not the same as visually building a web application as you'd do it in ASP.NET and SOFIA. Those two frameworks are radically different, and considerably better than the bland crop of web frameworks.
    I just tried to say that it is wrong to state that there are no tools that integrate with existing J2EE frameworks. There are tools and I suspect they are going to improve.

    Now, if we are to compare the tools of J2EE an .NET, then, undoubtedly, designing web GUI with ASP.NET is easier and more productive than with any java tool. Of course I want better tools in java, especially for UI (both rich clients and web)!

    Do I want a better tool for my favorite Spring framework? Probably. I just know the price of using any IDE: you are loosing understanding of the app's internals; this is not to say that I am against IDEs at all - I have to use RAD tools in places where they help me to be productive - I am using JBuilder, IntelliJ IDEA, OptimizeIt, Oracle Enterprise Manager, etc. I believe that it is in the best interests of a developer to get a good understanding on the underlying technologies and basic software design concepts, and only then move on to using RAD tools. In Microsoft world there is a great temptation to use the powerful GUI tool right from the day one. Not only temptation, it is often the only choice. Do you have, for example a lot of competing tools in ASP.NET?
    There is no good reason for JSP/taglibs to act the way they do from the perspective of a developer that needs to get the job done.
    I am not a big fan of JSP/taglibs (or JSF for that matter), and I never was. That's way I see template engines like Velocity much more suitable for rendering web UI.
    The average java developer cannot deal with the onslaught of new libs, tools, frameworks, and lack of integration.
    I guess, this is fate of any developer – lifelong learning.
    The reality, not guesswork, of the world is that ASP.NET apps can be build faster, with better results, less maintanance, less knowledge, and better performance than java apps.
    Agreed. I am also frustrated with lack of good tools aimed at current J2EE problems. You pointed to a very interesting aspect though, "less knowledge". In my experience, it takes much more expertise to build a solid J2EE-base application than a .NET-based one. Therefore, at the moment we are forced to study the design patterns in java and be experts because we don't have any tools to cover our weak spots :-)

    Regards,
    Valeri
  18. no no[ Go to top ]

    I think you are too harsh. Neither Java nor C# are precisely any revolutionary inventions- core languages per se. As Henrique and I aptly demonstrated, the ingenuity and innovation of today is in the frameworks and architecture. Nobody will accept in the long run a tool- no matter how good, that ties you down in that area. And the Java community has a nice head start. It is time to examine where your strong points really is in terms of competition.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  19. no no[ Go to top ]

    Nobody will accept in the long run a tool- no matter how good, that ties you down in that area.And the Java community has a nice head start. It is time to examine where your strong points really is in terms of competition
    Cool, nice to feel some "winds of change" (Scorpions)
  20. no no[ Go to top ]

    I think you are too harsh. Neither Java nor C# are precisely any revolutionary inventions- core languages per se. As Henrique and I aptly demonstrated, the ingenuity and innovation of today is in the frameworks and architecture. Nobody will accept in the long run a tool- no matter how good, that ties you down in that area. And the Java community has a nice head start. It is time to examine where your strong points really is in terms of competition.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Yes, given that both C# and Java are so similar, the difference will be shown exactly there in the frameworks and architectures built upon and adopted by each. Java has had some head start some time ago, then MS made its move, and now Java is coming up again, JSF is an direct response to that. Users are asking for "rich" web apps, and both ASP.Net and JSF are trying to fulfill that, in the limits imposed by HTML at least.
    Even being so new, JSF has some nice features that if leveraged soon can put Java back in the game, like the possibility of using XUL, SVG or other "rich" web UI right now, just by implementing a JSF UI rendering engine for the intended technology.
    Right now I am taking a look at http://www.flashgap.com/index.html, a open source tool for SWF (Macromedia Flash file) generation through a Java API. If we can generate a UI renderer for JSF using that API, maybe we will be able to use flash as the UI for JSF web applications. The great thing is that if a user doesn`t have flash player installed, he could just switch to html UI and the JSF app will work the same (ok, it probably won`t be exactly the same, but you get the picture).
    Other good point is that you will be able to use a friendly Flash UI designer, and have it integrated with your Java business code in the middle tier. Right now this Flash thing is just speculation, but it shows us JSF has great potential and flexibility.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  21. flash flash[ Go to top ]

    I believe once you begin working with the macromedia Flash development environment, you'll never look back. I too looked at other ways to generate SWF at first (Kinetic Fusion), but once you start using Flash MX you realize they've turned GUI and GUI development into a thing unto itself, borrowing much from multimedia production, not just a crappy extension of the middleware to use to deploy crappy user interfaces with the same old crappy widgets we've been seeing for 15 years.

    With something as good as Flash, who cares if it's proprietary?
  22. no no[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: Neither Java nor C# are precisely any revolutionary inventions- core languages per se.

    Java was revolutionary.

    C# is Java.

    If you want to understand how different the world is as a result of Java (and C#), I suggest that you only have to try programming networked applications (using sockets for example) in MSVC 1.5.2c again.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  23. Cameron: "try programming networked applications (using sockets for example) in MSVC 1.5.2c"

    No thanks!

    But as it is so many years ago the scars in your soul should have been healed by now.. Or else may I suggest a Caribian vacation? I can warmly recommend Cuba for instance, I have been there a number off times :)

    hi hi

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (BTW, to all it might concern, if you have decided to outsource anyhow why not choose Cuba? No time-zone difference and excellent educations and programmers, seriously)
  24. Cameron: "try programming networked applications (using sockets for example) in MSVC 1.5.2c"No thanks!But as it is so many years ago the scars in your soul should have been healed by now.. Or else may I suggest a Caribian vacation? I can warmly recommend Cuba for instance, I have been there a number off times :)hi hiRegardsRolf Tollerud(BTW, to all it might concern, if you have decided to outsource anyhow why not choose Cuba? No time-zone difference and excellent educations and programmers, seriously)
    More trolling and DION looks like is somewhere else but not here. How long do we have to endure this troll?
  25. ?[ Go to top ]

    But please Roberto Calero aka "Just a Software Developer"

    How can you say that my nice post above is trolling?
    What is it that is offensive? Are you kind of social analphabet or something?

    My God
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. you should read[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    I don't know what you are smoking now but please. stop refering to me in your postings. I have seen lately you refer to me as "Just a Software Developer". You are barking at the wrong three, I am not "Just a Software Developer".

    If you want to post anything in order to argue with me (you know who I am, but I dont know who you are) using technical arguments (no references to Cuba, Moroco or Mars) that's ok with me.

    Otherwise, stop calling me names.

    PS. Anyways, I can understand your position: when you have nothing to say, you just make noise.
  27. you should read[ Go to top ]

    It is not I that is making noise.

    ok, Roberto no problem.

    But tell your "friend" if you see him that trolling (just a little and not all the time), is better than being a troll. Also tell him to stop yelling and shouting and generally make a fool of himself. It is always easy to forget that posting to Internet is "Cast In Stone", they never go away but is left there forever. Your name and reputation is something you should careful with! Every company routinely Google any presumptive employees and it is no fun to be associated with a character as "Just a Software Developer".

    Peace
    Rolf Tollerud
  28. Hey Rolf[ Go to top ]

    Hey Rolf, you're back :)
    How was your living in MS world? Decided to go back and continue to blame J2EE? :)))))
  29. what to do? Work?[ Go to top ]

    I made a try but life was boring on the "other side". Not that it is so much fun in TSS.Java either. With Spring, Webwork2, Tapestry, etc, new Jdbc with datasets and Java guys being interested in things like Macromedia Flash file generation for rich clients what is it to blame anymore? It was different for two years ago when everybody used J2EE and EJB even in the smallest of projects.

    :(

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  30. SOFIA is Open Source[ Go to top ]

    For sure... SOFIA from Salmon LLC is the best I've seen by far. This is exactly how a web application framework should be designed. Personally I don't consider spring, webwork, or struts web application frameworks... they're only "parts" of a framework. SOFIA, ASP.NET, and Coldfusion MX are the only full application frameworks out there.
    Of the three, SOFIA is the only one that's Java based, Open Source and Free: http://sourceforge.net/projects/salmon
  31. Look people[ Go to top ]

    JDK 1.5 is lame-o in that it supports autoboxing and generics which is mildly useful, but doesn?t support class/method metadata which is freak?in awesome in .NET.
    I think you are wrong. Tiger supports metadata.

    A Metadata Facility for the JavaTM Programming Language

    This facility allows developers to define custom annotation types and to annotate fields, methods, classes, and other program elements with annotations corresponding to these types.
    I?m getting tired of watching .NET developers get things done 2-20 times as fast.
    Use a code generator (write your own or use middlegen or something else). I can generate WEB interface for a database table in seconds ! Code is STRUTS based and highly maintainable. No one developer could do it so fast. Even not .NET one. :-)
  32. How lame...[ Go to top ]


    Spring, struts, and webwork are barely capable frameworks, especially struts.
    Really
    They're ok for building sites for things like news, but when it comes to full web applications, they suck.
    Realy
    ...SUN cannot build a development environment worth paying for.
    Agree
    Examples? SWING is overly complicated. JSP and taglibs are a joke, take too long to compile, and are prone to serious coding error.
    Speak for yourself. The simple fact that you can't understand/master them doesn't make them bad. It seems to me that YOU have a problem. not them.
    Forte for Java was terrible.
    Agree to some degree. so what. go Eclipse.
    I work as a java developer in a company that is 99% MS VB.NET.
    ;-))

    Nitin ! You asked for ideeas for your future tales. Leif just got one ! Imagine 1 java guru (take a scary intelligent one like Mark Hapner for example) surrounded by a bunch of drunk VB developers (you started it ! :-)) and teaching them design patterns, distributed architectures, scalability and best practices :-))
    They run massive dynamic data warehouses for various clients all using VB.NET, and
    Good for them. It seems to me they make a living from what they are good at. There is nothing to admire nor to blame here.
    I have to bow to the fact that MS has built a vastly superior development environment than anything available on the Java side.
    Partially agree. However take a look at Jbuilder, BEA Workshop to help your ego survive.
    Pitch a fit and call me an idiot
    :-))
    but remember I'm on of you guys in the java world.
    Is there a Java world ? Will people ever stop throwing shit around and develop things in whatever language suits their needs ? If you have to write a real time application which must fit in a 32kB piece of memory would you choose your praised .NET ?
    I'm getting tired of watching .NET developers get things done 2-20 times as fast. Something needs to change.
    Simply go .NET. Why would you stick to java since it is such an inferior platform and is lacking tools so hard ? A good sofware developer, as I am convinced you are, won't care about the language or platform. He'll apply his good OO skills and manage even Ada. burp.

    I am so tired of this java vs .NET dispute that I am amazed of how do I get enough strength to reply almost every time. The fact that I make such a lousy reply every time makes me feel even worst. And childish.

    You should be BileBloged for this !
  33. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    Is there a Java world ? Will people ever stop throwing shit around and develop things in whatever language suits their needs ? If you have to write a real time application which must fit in a 32kB piece of memory would you choose your praised .NET ?
    Or Java ? (not to be missunderstood)
  34. JSF Architecture Rules![ Go to top ]

    There is a lot of talk about how fast developers can code in different languages using different frameworks. Seriously this does not matter very much. If you get in the super HTML rendering framework to get the job done in half the time, it would not have very much of an impact on the total cost of the project.

    When you evaluate one framework with another take into account the time it will take to verify the user interface part of the system. What matters there is if you have a decent architecture and design that will support this. I belive that JSF will contribute considerably to make HTML rendering an honourable technology. I cannot belive that I have spent months in a Struts project, just because I initially thought Struts was cool.

    The JSF ball is bigger than the other ones, and as said you will get a little trolley by the vendors to help you. I have played around with it a little, and I must say that I do not think that I will need any help. Just a few more features and some more example code. The reason JSF looks bloated is that it hides the complexities for me, not create new ones as Struts.

    As a comparison you can do this:
    Consider a user interface with one textbox that only accepts digits, and a submit and cancel button.
    The textbox content is validated on the server.
    On submit the submitted digits are redisplayed in the textbox.
    On cancel the textbox is displayed with whatever was there before the user edited it.
    Create two versions of this user interface, using JSF and your ordinary framework, and compare! Which one is the leanest?
  35. How lame...[ Go to top ]

    are you realy like java?
    you hate almost everything in java (jsp & taglibs ,swing ,ejb ,...) so can you please say what you like in java (perhaps for,do while,..)?
  36. JSF propnents keep saying: JSF will really shine when IDEs begin to roll out support for the framework.

    Does that mean if one uses emacs or vi, one will not be able to take advantage of the JSF/JSP/JSTL/Servlets concoction?
  37. JSF propnents keep saying: JSF will really shine when IDEs begin to roll out support for the framework. Does that mean if one uses emacs or vi, one will not be able to take advantage of the JSF/JSP/JSTL/Servlets concoction?
    I guess you will... but there will be a LOT of stuff for you to edit by hand and keep in sync, so good luck.
  38. JSF propnents keep saying: JSF will really shine when IDEs begin to roll out support for the framework. Does that mean if one uses emacs or vi, one will not be able to take advantage of the JSF/JSP/JSTL/Servlets concoction?
    Correct! You will still be able to work with these technologies but you will not be "taking advantage" of them. But this is the same in dotNet, does anyone find that working in dotNet is rewarding even if they are using Notepad? Maybe I wrong.

    Does this make JSF bad? I don't think so but those IDE's don't exist yet and when they come will they work? Time will tell.
  39. Notepad? Madre Mia..[ Go to top ]

    The misconceptions from the Java camp about .NET are enormous. Most experienced .NET developers (that BTW always have some Java experience) uses a good text editor like EditPlus for example and DbgCLR.exe, the stand alone debugger. Visual Studio is only used sparingly now and then- like with Web Service for instance.

    Even with Web Services you only use it in the initial state- you generate the wdsl file and go on with your favorite text editor.

    When will the Java community grow up?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  40. Not so around here[ Go to top ]

    I work in several Latin American countries and I can tell you that practically everyone around here use VS.NET, from students to corporate developers. Given the productivity gains, why wouldn't you ever do otherwise? The only times that I use notepad for coding C# is in initial teaching stages when showing the basic inner workings of the platform is useful and in advanced courses (like advanced web services) when showing what's going on behind the curtains with SOAP messages and the like is interesting. In the everydays of a project we almost never have to see or deal with a WSDL file and that's precisely the beauty of VS.NET; this of course is not at all the same as saying that we are drag-and-drop developers: for sure we use inheritance, polymorphism, patterns and application blocks to minimize the amount of code written but, in the end, we use (far) more time for writing C# code than for dragging-and-droping components.
  41. Not so around here[ Go to top ]

    Edgar: I work in several Latin American countries and I can tell you that practically everyone around here use VS.NET, from students to corporate developers.

    Edgar, the funny thing is that I am told just the opposite. Somebody has to be lying, or at least deluding themselves.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  42. 50-50[ Go to top ]

    Must be 50-50 split (between struts, asp.net)
    given the graph above.

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2004/03/23/aspnet_overtakes_jsp_and_java_servlets.html
  43. 50-50[ Go to top ]

    local references to .jhtml, .jsp, .gsp file extensions, or a local url starting "/servlets".
    Right. not to mention all those frameworks out there that allow using different presentation technologies like Velocity instead JSP and stuff. These are good stats. no doubt.
  44. But the trend is there[ Go to top ]

    ASP.NET is being used in more and more projects, you better stop denying it and start doing something about it. On the funny side, as far as Netcraft showed JSP/servlets *above* ASP.NET, nobody here questioned their stats...
  45. WebOnSwing[ Go to top ]

    I think you should take a look at WebOnSwing framework (http://webonswing.sf.net). It's equivalent to .NET Webforms in java, you can use any visual editor for swing to create pages, handle persistent state (like viewstate) in every page, multiples modal windows keeping navigation inside the page state, it has a powerful template engine that allows you to totally separate the view from business logic, you can refresh only the components that change its state from last request, skins, javascript/swing events, it's very easy to configure, and many other features...
  46. In the Andean region and Central America to be more precise. The use of IDEs, frameworks, etc. among the Java people in the same region is far more scattered of course (though I've seen several people using/recommending IntelliJ Idea).
  47. You just don't get it[ Go to top ]

    Edgar, first you said: I work in several Latin American countries and I can tell you that practically everyone around here use VS.NET, from students to corporate developers.

    Then you clairified it: My comment was about the .NET community .. In the Andean region and Central America to be more precise.

    So, what you are saying, is that within the ".NET community," that "practically everyone around here use VS.NET"?

    Well, if you think that's amazing, within the "Java community," it seems that "practically everyone" is using a JVM! </sarcasm>

    Edgar: ASP.NET is being used in more and more projects, you better stop denying it and start doing something about it.

    Umm. I never denied it. Actually, I would go so far as to agree with it.

    As far as "doing something about it," that seems like a silly concept. Why would I do something about it? A lot of those ASP.NET projects were ASP projects, and ASP.NET is a big improvement for them. That's a good thing for those projects; why would that upset me?

    I've stated before that .NET (including ASP.NET) is pretty good stuff ... I just think that for most new projects, it's a better choice to go with industry standards than Microsoft's proprietary platform.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  48. Re: You just don't get it[ Go to top ]

    So, what you are saying, is that within the ".NET community," that "practically everyone around here use VS.NET"? <sarcasm>Well, if you think that's amazing, within the "Java community," it seems that "practically everyone" is using a JVM!</sarcasm>
    I think I wasn't clear, my answer was directed to Rolf Tollerud who said that *most* people he knows who program in .NET *don't* use VS.NET, all I was trying to say is that my experience is exactly the opposite. I think the "sarcasm" is not correct because saying that all the Java community uses a JVM is akin to saying that all the .NET community uses the CLR, what I did say is that most of the .NET community uses *Visual Studio .NET*.
    Edgar: ASP.NET is being used in more and more projects, you better stop denying it and start doing something about it.

    Cameron: Umm. I never denied it. Actually, I would go so far as to agree with it.As far as "doing something about it," that seems like a silly concept.
    You certainly didn't deny it, that was an answer to *other* posting from Dorel Vaida, who didn't accept the Netcraft stats. With my "do something about it" I referred to the fact that somehow I long for the days when Java was *way* ahead of its competetion, "doing something" means working hard innovating the Java platform in a fast pace instead of denying the strides that .NET is doing both in technical and market terms.
  49. Re: You just don't get it[ Go to top ]

    Edgar: I think I wasn't clear, my answer was directed to Rolf Tollerud who said that *most* people he knows who program in .NET *don't* use VS.NET, all I was trying to say is that my experience is exactly the opposite.

    I see. I didn't realize that anyone took Rolf's opinion seriously.

    BTW - I always assumed that I was alone in my non-VS.NET use of .NET (I use jEdit and the command line C-pound compiler "csc".) I guess not though ... looks like I'm in good company with Rolf :))

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  50. into the Lion's den[ Go to top ]

    "Until hell freezes or Sun publish a J2EE TPC benchmark or Cameron changes his ways"

    Edgar!

    I don't know you but image you as a fairly young, intelligent and talented guy from Latin-America, a Microsoft MVP. The thing is that you are much too honest, innocent, naive and trustful to engage with Cameron, which is the most crafty, devious and cunning debate-fox since the bible times, with thousand of postings behind him. If you Google "Cameron Purdy", you get 15 900 hits! :)

    When you said "practically everyone around here use VS.NET" Cameron was well aware that you were answering what I said: "most experienced .NET developers use a good text editor", but Cameron never miss an opportunity like that- by answering you as you had said:

    I work in several Latin American countries and I can tell you that practically everyone around here use VS.NET, from students to corporate developers.

    i e uses .NET instead of Java..

    instead of what you actually said was,
    "Of the people that use .NET a practically everyone.."

    Because most people do not think for themselves, the bystanders are made to believe that you are the dishonest one.. The biggest mistake you can do in that situation is to defend the new question in which case Cameron has succeeded to too give the discussion a new turn that better suits him.

    Why did I use the expression "since the bible times"? I am sure everybody at this time have deduces that I am an atheist :)

    Because somehow I am sure that Cameron goes to church every Sunday!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  51. into the Lion's den[ Go to top ]

    "Until hell freezes or Sun publish a J2EE TPC benchmark or Cameron changes his ways"Edgar! I don't know you but image you as a fairly young, intelligent and talented guy from Latin-America, a Microsoft MVP. The thing is that you are much too honest, innocent, naive and trustful to engage with Cameron, which is the most crafty, devious and cunning debate-fox since the bible times, with thousand of postings behind him. If you Google "Cameron Purdy", you get 15 900 hits! :)When you said "practically everyone around here use VS.NET" Cameron was well aware that you were answering what I said: "most experienced .NET developers use a good text editor", but Cameron never miss an opportunity like that- by answering you as you had said:I work in several Latin American countries and I can tell you that practically everyone around here use VS.NET, from students to corporate developers.i e uses .NET instead of Java.. instead of what you actually said was,"Of the people that use .NET a practically everyone.."Because most people do not think for themselves, the bystanders are made to believe that you are the dishonest one.. The biggest mistake you can do in that situation is to defend the new question in which case Cameron has succeeded to too give the discussion a new turn that better suits him.Why did I use the expression "since the bible times"? I am sure everybody at this time have deduces that I am an atheist :)Because somehow I am sure that Cameron goes to church every Sunday!RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Can anyone mark this troll as NOISY?? Shit!! What does the above have to do with the thread? BTW, I have to point out that Edgar Sanchez was the very same person who tried to argue with Cameron by giving a FALSE and TOTALLY MISLEADING technical argument. When he was proven wrong, he just vanished in thin air.

    Not very flattery for a "fairly young, intelligent and talented guy from Latin-America, a Microsoft MVP"
  52. about posting anonymously[ Go to top ]

    Hi Roberto (aka Just a Software Developer),

    Why do they allow "MS agenda"

    Maybe because I see myself more like participating in a Java fork, targeting Mono, than a .NET developer?

    Roberto: "Don't we deserve the same respect?"

    Maybe because there are things which are worse than being a troll: being rude, vulgar and crass?

    Many think that it is impossible to ban anybody from the list because they can just open an account and go on under another name. No so. It is very easy to recognize people’s styles. It is just as impossible for me or anybody else to hide under another name as it is for Roberto to hide under "Just a Software Developer! Our style immediately gives us away.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  53. about posting anonymously[ Go to top ]

    Sorry, I've already told you thousand times my name is not ROBERTO. And as I've already stated in TSS.NET, I am more than happy to state my real name and credentials AFTER you state yours. I guess it is fair. Isn't it?
    Many think that it is impossible to ban anybody from the list because they can just open an account and go on under another name
    Is that why you asked someone to ban me? Always contradicting yourself.
    Maybe because I see myself more like participating in a Java fork, targeting Mono, than a .NET developer?
    Who cares about what you may or may not think about yourself? Time to go back to your Ninja website!!
    Maybe because there are things which are worse than being a troll: being rude, vulgar and crass?
    Yeah, right. And your references to Cameron are so polite we all should bow before you. A troll is a troll. It may be educated but just a troll in the end. I guess you consider yourself an educated troll!!!
    Our style immediately gives us away.
    ohhhh.... did you have style?

    You do not belong here. Why do you bother coming back here?
  54. Notepad? Madre Mia..[ Go to top ]

    The misconceptions from the Java camp about .NET are enormous. Most experienced .NET developers (that BTW always have some Java experience) uses a good text editor like EditPlus for example and DbgCLR.exe, the stand alone debugger. Visual Studio is only used sparingly now and then- like with Web Service for instance.Even with Web Services you only use it in the initial state- you generate the wdsl file and go on with your favorite text editor.When will the Java community grow up?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    What exactly IS the java community - you've stated that most experienced .net developers have some java experience, and a lot of people here seem to have some .net experience, so if there really are two communities, there must be a huge overlap? Maybe we could discuss the technologies rather than demonising some mythical community? You did a bit of this - explaining the usage of editplus and the debugger, but you couldn't help a little bit of stereotyping.
  55. Notepad? Madre Mia..[ Go to top ]

    Hei Stephen,

    For the first nobody use Notepad but cool light-weight Text-Editors with syntax highlighting.

    Why not use Visual Studio?
    Just some thoughts of top of my head,

    1) When I generate a Hello world application I get 12 files on my hard disk as well as some directories I not even know what they do. When I later want to deploy "Hello World" on the server am I supposed to ftp the whole shebang to the server? Please explain without mentioning the dreaded words "Frontpage Extensions" (shiver).

    2) After I compiled "hello World" (that BTW takes much loonger time than from the command line) I see with surprise that VS already like Procrustes has stretched out or cut off my legs to accommodate the size of the bed, in other words it has only one architecture for all kinds of projects :)

    3) I become very unhappy when I see code in my files like "This call is required by the ASP.NET Web Form Designer". I not only want as few files as possible but even as small files as possible. I also like to know whatis going on! Is that to much to ask?

    4) In the IDE vs Text.Editor debate, remember that the Linux guys although they have VIM, doesn't have DbgCLR.exe (startup=1 second), the state of the art standalone debugger that happily steps around in C#, VB, JScript, CLR, C++ or even Java and ASP pages with Javascript, VbScript, and with you have context sensitive information.

    5) When you send your code to someone you can not be sure that he has Visual Studio.NET, or any other IDE. You can bet he will be happy when he sees your minimalistic files with the provided batch-compile file!

    6) When you have 5-6 VS projects that are to be compounded together, how do you organize the order in they will compile? Please explain.

    7) Do you not want your code to run with Mono.NET? Linux will be big business- better believe it or I will be saying "I Told You So", my favorite :)

    8) Do you want "Drag & Drop? Forget it. The design is done by professional web designers nowadays.

    To Cameron: The reason that we have different experiences about the use of Visual Studio can be explained like this: The practice in Andean region and Central America is different than in Europe and/or Edgar and I know different kind of people.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  56. PS.

    On the down side is that I once lost a contract because they noticed that I was just "un poco" unfamiliar with Visual Studio :-)
  57. Notepad? Madre Mia..[ Go to top ]

    Hei Stephen, For the first nobody use Notepad but cool light-weight Text-Editors with syntax highlighting.Why not use Visual Studio? Just some thoughts of top of my head,
    So the god-gift tool of productivity is not that good after all? That one I haven't heard yet...
    1) When I generate a Hello world application I get 12 files on my hard disk as well as some directories I not even know what they do. When I later want to deploy "Hello World" on the server am I supposed to ftp the whole shebang to the server? Please explain without mentioning the dreaded words "Frontpage Extensions" (shiver).,
    I thought 12 files generation was just a Java "bug", not a .Net one... that one I haven't heard too!
    2) After I compiled "hello World" (that BTW takes much loonger time than from the command line) I see with surprise that VS already like Procrustes has stretched out or cut off my legs to accommodate the size of the bed, in other words it has only one architecture for all kinds of projects :)3) I become very unhappy when I see code in my files like "This call is required by the ASP.NET Web Form Designer". I not only want as few files as possible but even as small files as possible. I also like to know whatis going on! Is that to much to ask?
    That VS ties you down, that one I _have_ heard before! ;)
    4) In the IDE vs Text.Editor debate, remember that the Linux guys although they have VIM, doesn't have DbgCLR.exe (startup=1 second), the state of the art standalone debugger that happily steps around in C#, VB, JScript, CLR, C++ or even Java and ASP pages with Javascript, VbScript, and with you have context sensitive information.
    I beg to differ: I have been using DDD with GDB since 1997, and I recommend both, it is a lovely debug tool for Linux and Unix in general! It just cant handle CLR, VB or C# files, I wonder why... ;)
    5) When you send your code to someone you can not be sure that he has Visual Studio.NET, or any other IDE. You can bet he will be happy when he sees your minimalistic files with the provided batch-compile file!6) When you have 5-6 VS projects that are to be compounded together, how do you organize the order in they will compile? Please explain.
    If YOU don't know, do you think most ex-VB developers will be able to do it?
    7) Do you not want your code to run with Mono.NET? Linux will be big business- better believe it or I will be saying "I Told You So", my favorite
    That Linux is big business, that's out of question. Now regarding Mono... it still has a looong way to go before we can assert that! And if mono manages to keep up with .Net evolution also, what I think won't be an easy task.
    :)8) Do you want "Drag & Drop? Forget it. The design is done by professional web designers nowadays.To Cameron: The reason that we have different experiences about the use of Visual Studio can be explained like this: The practice in Andean region and Central America is different than in Europe and/or Edgar and I know different kind of people.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Well, from where I stand (working in a big telco company in a big town in Brazil, biggest country in Latin America), I can tell you that .Net adoption is a bit slow, lots of companies still have "legacy" systems in VB and ASP, and microsoft licensing doesn't encorage them to go upgrading, so... Myself being an ASP developer as of lately, I would love to get my hands wet in .Net, but managers here and network admins are reluctant to deploy it on our servers. What a pity. But since we have lots of unix boxes, Java has had greater acceptance meanwhile. They got a J2EE server running even on our mainframes!! How's that for portability? :)

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  58. Henrique: "Brazil, biggest country in Latin America), I can tell you that .Net adoption is a bit slow"

    Well I believe you, don't think otherwise.
    Brazil is a very large country compared to Sweden. Could it be that small moves faster than big? Like small specialized stores move faster than the big Warehouses?. I don't know.

    Cameron, you will profit by trying to look upon it from another angle.

    Developers like myself (if I may say so), that don't use Visual Studio, that have at least one year of Java behind the belt and never would have taken up C# if we didn't knew that eventually it be available on Unix, that read Java books rather than .NET books and take inspiration mainly from projects like Rod Johnson/Juergen Hoeller's Spring and Cedrik Beust's Canvas, we could more be looked upon as as we fork Java- because Sun had the wrong type of license. It has happened many times before as for example with KDE and GNOME.

    And also because we didn't feel that we got the same kind of support from Sun as we were used to get from Microsoft and MSDN.

    IMO theserverside did a mistake when they put up TSS.NET. They should have done TSS.MONO!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  59. Henrique: "Brazil, biggest country in Latin America), I can tell you that .Net adoption is a bit slow"Well I believe you, don't think otherwise.Brazil is a very large country compared to Sweden. Could it be that small moves faster than big? Like small specialized stores move faster than the big Warehouses?.
    The size of the country doesn't have anything to do with the size of its companies, just compare Brazil and Japan, for example, so your logic doesn't apply.
    Developers like myself (if I may say so), that don't use Visual Studio, that have at least one year of Java behind the belt and never would have taken up C# if we didn't knew that eventually it be available on Unix
    Rolf, I imagine the percentage of .Net developers that dont use VS is minimal. And in that small group, the percentage of developers expecting to deploy on linux may be even smaller yet. It would be the last reason why one would jump into .Net, it you think about it for just a second. People are jumping into .Net looking for productivity, not because they expect to deploy on linux god-knows-when.

    Regards,
    Henrique Stecklberg
  60. Henrique: "People are jumping into .Net looking for productivity, not because they expect to deploy on linux god-knows-when"

    Let me explain. If you have a product. Then it is not only that you can look forward to sell your product to Linux to double your income sometimes in the "god-knows future".

    The thing is, and read carefully,

    While developing today you know that the product will run unhindered on Linux when Mono becomes available.


    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  61. The thing is, and read carefully,While developing today you know that the product will run unhindered on Linux when Mono becomes available.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Rolf, no one knows whether .Net products will ever run unhindered on Linux (everyone knows there are lots of reasons to doubt it ever will), and the last time I checked, human beings haven't developed divination abilities yet... Maybe only in Mankind v2.0, but you know how evolution goes, beta testing could take millions of years... ;)

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  62. "Rolf, no one knows whether .Net products will ever run.."

    Henrique: I never believed you would follow good advice, after all nobody does. Therefore I have decided to start a new business idea of mine.

    Instead of giving good advices, I will listen to every good advice for $10 per advice.!

    So my dear customers come on with your good advices! My account is:
    Barclays’ Bank, London. account 845123404634-A.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  63. "Rolf, no one knows whether .Net products will ever run.."Henrique: I never believed you would follow good advice, after all nobody does.
    Rolf, you are at the wrong profession: only politicians live on promises! ;)

    Cheers!
    Henrique Steckelberg
  64. Notepad? Madre Mia..[ Go to top ]

    The misconceptions from the Java camp about .NET are enormous. Most experienced .NET developers (that BTW always have some Java experience) uses a good text editor like EditPlus for example and DbgCLR.exe, the stand alone debugger. Visual Studio is only used sparingly now and then- like with Web Service for instance.Even with Web Services you only use it in the initial state- you generate the wdsl file and go on with your favorite text editor.When will the Java community grow up?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    That is news to me. I too am a .NET developer and I have never used anything but Visual Studio to perform my work and I believe that all of my fellow co-workers would say the same. Not that you are wrong, I simply surprised to here that.
  65. I'm not trying to be funny but...[ Go to top ]

    ... then neither is this cartoon.

    Where is this lock-in ? You choose a framework to help you build an application. You are free to choose another framework for your next application. The fact that there is so much choice is a positive thing.
  66. I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    This cartoon is (almost) like saying

    "I want to program in OO. But Java would tie me down!!!!!"

    Executable UML anybody? C'mon guys, this is just taking it overboard....

    You have to choose a framework, no matter what.
    The only way you dont result in vendor lock-in is by rolling your own. (But then there is self lock-in ?)

    -Srikanth
  67. I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    This cartoon is (almost) like saying"I want to program in OO. But Java would tie me down!!!!!" Executable UML anybody? C'mon guys, this is just taking it overboard....You have to choose a framework, no matter what. The only way you dont result in vendor lock-in is by rolling your own. (But then there is self lock-in ?)-Srikanth
    Umm... this is a joke... humor...

    entries found for humor.
    hu·mor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hymr)
    n.

       1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
       2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
       3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit1.
  68. I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    Umm... this is a joke... humor... entries found for humor.hu·mor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hymr)n.   1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.   2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.   3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit1.
    Gotcha... I was looking for "humour" all along, not humor. ;-D
  69. Re: I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    This cartoon is (almost) like saying"I want to program in OO. But Java would tie me down!!!!!" Executable UML anybody? C'mon guys, this is just taking it overboard....You have to choose a framework, no matter what. The only way you dont result in vendor lock-in is by rolling your own. (But then there is self lock-in ?)
    I liked the cartoon. But I don't think that is the message. OO or Java will not tie you down, those frameworks will. Personally I don't think this is completely true. I think bad design will tie you to a frame work and good (OO) design will save you. (mmmh, OO saves...)

    When I look at some new framework, the most important factor I look at is how much I will need to make compromises to my design. So Struts is good, Spring is bad, because Struts allows me to keep my design clean, while in Spring I have to compromise.

    Ralf
  70. maybe Eclipse can do it[ Go to top ]

    I think that Sun is intending to make JFS the "default" in NetBeans, so they will have something similar to MS VS. A better idea would be to give a choice between the most powerful Frameworks; Spring, Webwork2, Tapestry, Struts, JSF etc, let the user choose the one he wants, accept some input and then create a skeleton application for the requested Framework.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  71. maybe Eclipse can do it[ Go to top ]

    I think that Sun is intending to make JFS the "default" in NetBeans, so they will have something similar to MS VS. A better idea would be to give a choice between the most powerful Frameworks; Spring, Webwork2, Tapestry, Struts, JSF etc, let the user choose the one he wants, accept some input and then create a skeleton application for the requested Framework. RegardsRolf Tollerud
    JSF has nothing to do with Netbeans, Sun is creating a new tool built upon JSF and Netbeans, but that is as far as it goes. Other companies and OS community will be able to build upon JSF as well, no matter what IDE they (or you) choose. The great advantage here is that we will be able to reuse UI components between different JSF implementations and IDE tools. If someday other web frameworks jump on the bandwagon too and get JSF compliant, the better. I am not sure, but some of the already existing frameworks can be adapted to work with JSF, either by being it's templating mechanism (easier), or by being full compliant with the SPEC (harder). But this will happen only if JSF gets adopted widely in the market.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  72. more dreams..[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "If someday other web frameworks jump on the bandwagon too and get JSF compliant, the better"


    And even still better, after you have picked your type of project and framework ("check here if you want declarative transactions"!), then you choose language, Java, C#, Python, etc! :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  73. even more dreams..[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: "If someday other web frameworks jump on the bandwagon too and get JSF compliant, the better"And even still better, after you have picked your type of project and framework ("check here if you want declarative transactions"!), then you choose language, Java, C#, Python, etc! :)RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Don't forget the "deploy to" button, where you would choose between different OS (Windows, Linux, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, PalmOS, etc.) and hardware (Intel, Mac, Mainframe, Risc, Palmtop, Cellphone, etc.) ;)

    Cheers!
    Henrique Steckelberg
  74. Re: I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    This cartoon is (almost) like saying"I want to program in OO. But Java would tie me down!!!!!" Executable UML anybody? C'mon guys, this is just taking it overboard....You have to choose a framework, no matter what. The only way you dont result in vendor lock-in is by rolling your own. (But then there is self lock-in ?)
    I liked the cartoon. But I don't think that is the message. OO or Java will not tie you down, those frameworks will. Personally I don't think this is completely true. I think bad design will tie you to a frame work and good (OO) design will save you. (mmmh, OO saves...)When I look at some new framework, the most important factor I look at is how much I will need to make compromises to my design. So Struts is good, Spring is bad, because Struts allows me to keep my design clean, while in Spring I have to compromise.Ralf
    Please note that I'm one of the lead developers of one of these frameworks.

    I agree that good frameworks won't tie you down, but you have the dependency-o-meter completely wired backwards. You HAVE to extend Struts base classes to use Struts. Other frameworks don't require this AT ALL. Spring doesn't make you have ANY Spring dependencies for the common usage.
  75. Re: I dont get it.....[ Go to top ]

    Please note that I'm one of the lead developers of one of these frameworks. I agree that good frameworks won't tie you down, but you have the dependency-o-meter completely wired backwards. You HAVE to extend Struts base classes to use Struts. Other frameworks don't require this AT ALL. Spring doesn't make you have ANY Spring dependencies for the common usage.
    Oh dear, put my foot in it again didn't I? I didn't mean to offend.

    Part of why I liked the cartoon is that it really illustrates some of the problems I'm wrestling with. Everybody has their own design philosophy. Mine tends towards OO purism, influenced as I am by several great examples in my vicinity. Domain knowledge in the model, the rest is just services for the model.

    Having said that, i do feel that Spring forces more dependencies on me than Struts. Struts forces me to extend base classes, but to me those classes don't matter, they are part of the service. Struts Action talk to my struts adapters , my model adapters observe to the struts adapters and my model stays clean.

    My brief experience with Spring was an attempt to transport an existing application into it. It had a simple clean model. I did succeed but i had to make extensive changes to the way services where called, mostly due to the introduction of manager class. As a framework Spring goes further than Struts in its influence beyond it as a service for web presentation.
  76. How lame...NOT[ Go to top ]

    Spring, struts, and webwork are barely capable frameworks, especially struts. The real downfall of all these frameworks is the lack of integration and support to build a web application. They?re ok for building sites for things like news, but when it comes to full web applications, they suck.
    I've always put struts first whenever developing web applications whether they are just basic websites/intranets to enterprise apps. Struts is easy to follow and modular enough to ensure there is a flow from screen to screen. Granted there are some features that could be enhanced (using multiple FormBeans per Action for instance, improve the user documentation) but even then it makes it easy to design the application, validate forms as well as abstract the web interface from the business processes.

    I've tried JSF and for some reason it appears Sun are trying to redefine the whole request/response process flow and turn it into more of an ActionListener style process which I just can't grasp under a web perspective.

    As mentioned there are tools to develop struts apps and I for one also use IntelliJ and now find other IDE's too bloated with functionality that I never got to use.

    Go and get a proper text on Struts and use it to it's limits you'll probably find there are heaps of features you haven't noticed.

    AI
  77. Very funny! However maybe we should be crying instead due to its truth. I did like the comment that JSF vendors provide you with a wagon to carry the load. The only "wagon" I have seen so far has square wheels. It's still early hopefully in a year or so the wagons will get better.

    Kris Thompson
    www.frameworks-boulder.org
  78. If it is Craig...[ Go to top ]

    Then he should have a leg or something tied to the Struts ball as well. :P


    Cheers,

    Arron.
  79. If it is Craig...[ Go to top ]

    Then he should have a leg or something tied to the Struts ball as well. :PCheers,Arron.
    Is it Craig? That's what I was wondering too when I saw the drawing. You know you've become a celebrity when you've got a cartoon character. Does this mean he'll soon have his own paparazzi?

    On the question of framework lockin, it's important for us to recognize that lockin is a matter of code coupling, not vendors. If you build your own framework, you're just as locked in. What reduces lockin is having a good, extensible design. And JSF actually does a very good job compared to what's out there.

    Yes, it's sad that the JCP is going to slow down any new releases. But that's why new frameworks are always poping up to pioneer the way. As I see it, the job of the JCP is to watch and see where things are converging and to update standards once the innovation is done. The idea that the JCP is the only way to innovate and grow Java is what stands as the biggest risk of killing Java. Standards are here to standardize well accepted innovations. Using standards as part of the innovation process is what yields these half-backed solutions that don't hit the problem on the head.

    I think they did a great job with JSF. It's taking what is accepted best design and standardizing it. Meanwhile, frameworks will continue to innovate. And that's exactly what I want to see as a developer.
  80. If it is Craig...[ Go to top ]

    Yes, it's sad that the JCP is going to slow down any new releases. But that's why new frameworks are always poping up to pioneer the way. As I see it, the job of the JCP is to watch and see where things are converging and to update standards once the innovation is done.
    Imagine if original Java 1.0 had to go through the JCP :)

    I think, the JCP, as it is now, is an artificial way to standardize new libraries. (E.g. why Log4j was not chosen for standardization? why JDO specs took ages to come through? why such fundamentally flawed technology as JSP 1.0 was standardized?)

    I believe, to keep java innovative, the JCP should be more collaborative, should take more input from the developer community and less from large corporations; it also should not take years to get a proposal either approved or rejected.

    Going back to J2EE application frameworks, I personally don't understand why Struts was favored by Sun as a starting point for JSF over the much more capable, innovative and mature projects, such as WebWork, Tapestry, Spring, Cocoon.
  81. Here is some bad news for java fans[ Go to top ]

    ASP.NET overtakes Java solutions - Netcraft

    Though many applications are deployed inside an intranet, public web sites based on asp.net have been increasing in adoption. What surprised me is that Coldfusion based sites are at th etop of the chart - because they do not require any programming ?
  82. Well I am sceptical about those figures, since you can't always determine that an application uses java technology, often a servlet container is used behind apache or iis so you won't be able to tell by the headers

    on the page you can read it counts local references to .jhtml, .jsp, .gsp file extensions, or a local url starting "/servlets". so if you're using something like struts and al your url's end in .do it wont register, if your using cocoon xsp pages it won't register etc etc.., with asp.net pages you can allways make a positive ID
  83. ColdFusion not programming?[ Go to top ]

    Excuse me... but having worked in ColdFusion for a while... I'm just wondering how you can say it is not programming? I suppose if CF is not programming, neither is JSP.
  84. ColdFusion not programming?[ Go to top ]

    Excuse me... but having worked in ColdFusion for a while... I'm just wondering how you can say it is not programming? I suppose if CF is not programming, neither is JSP.
    JAVA is good for web development, but not for all web applications or homepages.
    PHP is one of the best technologies too, if we are talking about web applications like "forum", "petshop", "TSS" ...
  85. not programming...[ Go to top ]

    ok... but now please explain how anyone can justify the statement that ColdFusion sites do not require any programming...
  86. not programming...[ Go to top ]

    ok... but now please explain how anyone can justify the statement that ColdFusion sites do not require any programming...
    It was possible to code for CF too (JAVA,C++ custom tags), but this product
    is dead and there is nothing to discuss about.
  87. not programming...[ Go to top ]

    It was possible to code for CF too (JAVA,C++ custom tags), but this productis dead and there is nothing to discuss about.
    ok. so you agree with me. this is now waaay of topic. but to recap, CF is just as much programming as any other language.

    i don't think CF is dead...
  88. Here is some bad news for java fans[ Go to top ]

    Though many applications are deployed inside an intranet, public web sites based on asp.net have been increasing in adoption.

    I think this may be a tad misleading. If ASPs and JSPs were on a par, then what we are looking at is ASP.NET replacing ASP, rather than replacing JSPs. This is hardly surprising when you consider that MS is pushing .NET onto everyone who upgrades their Windows servers.

    Secondly, as someone else has pointed out, Java-based sites are getting much better these days; use of MVC patterns makes these sites harder to spot because the JSP pages are used more as templates, so are not exposed on the URL.

    What surprised me is that Coldfusion based sites are at th etop of the chart - because they do not require any programming ?

    Probably yes. CF is purely tag-based, so designers are much more comfortable with it.

    Oh, and ColdFusion is actually a tag translation engine written as a J2EE application. Runs on Weblogic and Websphere and you can extend it if you can write Java .... :-)

    Seems to me like Java is doing very well on the net; in one form or another.
  89. Java Servlets - local references to .jhtml, .jsp, .gsp file extensions, or a local url starting "/servlets".
    Does this mean they don't take into consideration *.do for struts or xml for cocoon? It's a rather limited test if you ask me considering different frameworks can use any type of extension they want.

    AI
  90. It's been a long time since I heard people say anything rational about web frameworks. On the one hand we are obsessed with separation of model view and controller. On the other hand, we don't want to edit more than one file. Frameworks should provide a frame that has some magical effect but at the same time they should be so unobtrusive that we can take all our code and run it outside of the framework without changing a single line of code.

    And the latest fashion seems to be JSF bashing based solely upon the suspicion that if the creators say JSF is suitable for tooling, it must be hard to use without tools. Not so. I would really advise everybody to read the JSF spec, try some typical scenarios and then come back to discuss it. I think they have got one important thing right: Simple things are very simple and you can gradually replace the sensible defaults with custom behaviour without incurring a sudden steep increase in effort or complexity.
  91. It's been a long time since I heard people say anything rational about web frameworks. On the one hand we are obsessed with separation of model view and controller. On the other hand, we don't want to edit more than one file. Frameworks should provide a frame that has some magical effect but at the same time they should be so unobtrusive that we can take all our code and run it outside of the framework without changing a single line of code. And the latest fashion seems to be JSF bashing based solely upon the suspicion that if the creators say JSF is suitable for tooling, it must be hard to use without tools. Not so. I would really advise everybody to read the JSF spec, try some typical scenarios and then come back to discuss it. I think they have got one important thing right: Simple things are very simple and you can gradually replace the sensible defaults with custom behaviour without incurring a sudden steep increase in effort or complexity.
    You mean the 800+ page JSF spec? Yeah, that's lightweight..
  92. <blockquoteYou mean the 800+ page JSF spec? Yeah, that's lightweight..Jason, if you had actually counted, you could very easily verify that JSF Spec has exactly 298 pages. Anyway I don't think the number of pages a spec has has anything to do with it being good or not. JSF is as "complex" as most web frameworks out there, it is nothing out of this world by any mean once you grasp its workings, so would you care to tell me what is it you have against JSF so much?
  93. You mean the 800+ page JSF spec? Yeah, that's lightweight..
    Jason is right, as the co-author of the spec document, I can say that document is primarily intended for implementors. Now, if you're a true hacker, you'll want to read it anyway, but a JSF user can learn all they need to know by reading the JSF tutorial section of the J2EE 1.4 tutorial at <
    Regarding the issue of JSF being usable without the tool-wagon, yes, it was definately intended to be that way, and I think it is actually easier to use than Struts.

    Regarding the issue of framework lock-in, since JSF will eventually be a part of core J2EE, one would be no more locked in to JSF than locked in to J2EE itself. In other words, complaining about JSF lock-in would be tantamount to complaining about J2EE lock-in, which, is of course open to debate if you talk to the Spring Framework folks.

    Finally, I do agree with the poster on this thread that said the stateless world of the web is a terrible place to do a UI framework, but the customer wants it and they're always right!

    Ed (JSF EG Member)
  94. Pardon my incorrectly formatted reply. The link was mangled. Here it is.
    Now, if you're a true hacker, you'll want to read it anyway, but a JSF user can learn all they need to know by reading the JSF tutorial section of the J2EE 1.4 tutorial at
    ...

    http://java.sun.com/j2ee/1.4/docs/tutorial/doc/JSFIntro.html#wp114889

    Ed (JSF EG Member)
  95. You mean the 800+ page JSF spec? Yeah, that's lightweight..
    The spec has 300 pages. If you want to extend and customise JSF, it is useful reading. Anyway I didn't say the spec was lightweight (as specs never are), I said JSF was simple to use and relatively easy to extend.
  96. Stop shooting yourself in the foot[ Go to top ]

    You are all killing me! and yourselves ...

    Stop developing frameworks to make life easy
    Stop reducing the number of bugs
    Add more complexity to J2EE
    So we can preserve our jobs :)

    Seriously though, it always amuses me that all the big open-source, free software proponents are all people who made their big $$$ working for companies that they now claim are evil.

    A true free-software proponent should estimate how much money he/she made through paid software in the past and return that money to whoever paid it. Any takers? uh?
  97. Stop shooting yourself in the foot[ Go to top ]

    Seriously though, it always amuses me that all the big open-source, free software proponents are all people who made their big $$$ working for companies that they now claim are evil.A true free-software proponent should estimate how much money he/she made through paid software in the past and return that money to whoever paid it. Any takers? uh?
    On the contrary, almost everyone I have ever met in the open source community that makes "big $$$" is a freelance consultant. Almost everyone else I have met in the open source community (making moderate-to-small $$$), is currently working at some big company that endorses the open-source effort. The former quite often spout off about big, evil companies; the latter almost never do.

    As for your assumptions about "A true free-software proponent", you are making the common outsider-looking-in mistake. To quote Richard Stallman:
    "Free software" is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of "free speech", not "free beer".
    There are lots of people making massive heaps of money out of "free software", and no one (well, almost no one) in the free software community sees anything wrong with it! But they make money out of the thing they can easily control (what they know, say, and do), not out of the thing that it takes draconian police-state measures to control (bits stored on networked computers).
  98. To .NET evangelists[ Go to top ]

    It's amazing to see such a large number of .NET developers on the TSS.com. Are they part of "Your Enterprise Java Community"? If so, why on this thread alone we see strong .NET evangelization efforts, while the topic has no connection with the .NET? What is the purpose?
  99. It's amazing to see such a large number of .NET developers on the TSS.com. Are they part of "Your Enterprise Java Community"? If so, why on this thread alone we see strong .NET evangelization efforts, while the topic has no connection with the .NET? What is the purpose?
    Hi Valeri:

    1. They flooded TSS.COM with .NET articles before launching TSS.NET

    2. They allow Mr(?) Rolf Tollerud to work his MS agenda in this forum, agenda that is clearly anti-Java and anti-Sun: http://www.theserverside.net/news/thread.tss?thread_id=24588#114847

    3. Mr(?) Rolf Tollerud gets angry when someone does in TSS.NET what he use to do in TSS.COM (I mean, trolling): http://www.theserverside.net/news/thread.tss?thread_id=24588#114645

    4. Ted Neward (TSS.NET Editor) reacts promptly and defends TSS.NET (BTW, well done Ted!!!): http://www.theserverside.net/news/thread.tss?thread_id=24588#114781


    So, from the above is clear than nobody can mess up with TSS.NET, they are very alert and won't allow nobody to troll the site (which I agree perfectly).

    WHY DO THEY DEFEND TSS.NET SO MUCH BUT ALLOW TROLLS (like Mr(?) Rolf Tollerud) TO MESS UP WITH TSS.COM???

    Don't we deserve the same respect than their .NET site? I mean, we pay for attending their events, we pay for TheServerSide Java Symposium, we are important to them for their advertising revenue...

    WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A TROLL-FREE FORUM?

    By the way, I know of at least 7 people who have already marked Rolf's comments as NOISY but you know what? They are still visible!!!! Why is that?

    As I said in a previous thread... VERY, VERY SUSPICIOUS!!!!
  100. First App Server Lock in, now framework lock in. Any code you write or use gives you lock in. If the framework can run in different J2EE environments, what's the big deal. Having someone write a bunch of custom code and then quiting is code lock in. I think there is too much lock-in in fear.
    Pretty soon we will have programming language lock in, and then Meta data language lock in, etc...

    Frameworks like Struts I feel do not lock you in to anything other than code. Any code written and maintained is lock in. JSF is really the only one which may lend itself to lock-in, not framework lock-in, but the ability to provide your own components. And even that is not a big deal.
  101. Talking about lock-in[ Go to top ]

    JSF IDEs is going to greatly help us to design web apps but how "portable" is my web application? If I use vendor specific UI components in their IDE, don't I become very much lock-in to that vendor? The WAR file should be able to be deployed in other server supporting JSF but the UI components will keep me tied down, isn't this true?
  102. Talking about lock-in[ Go to top ]

    JSF IDEs is going to greatly help us to design web apps but how "portable" is my web application? If I use vendor specific UI components in their IDE, don't I become very much lock-in to that vendor? The WAR file should be able to be deployed in other server supporting JSF but the UI components will keep me tied down, isn't this true?
    You should be able to use a vendor specific UI component on any JSF implementation, and that's the key feature of JSF: it will allow reuse of components, and not just the simple HTML ones, but also the complex ones build from small parts which work as a unit. Say, if I create a fancy calendar UI component in JSF, it should be able to run on any compliant JSF implementation, you just have to package its tld and classes in the war file. That's the beauty of a spec... If current web frameworks became JSF compliant, lock-in would be greatly reduced.

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  103. Talking about lock-in[ Go to top ]

    Say, if I create a fancy calendar UI component in JSF, it should be able to run on any compliant JSF implementation, you just have to package its tld and classes in the war file. That's the beauty of a spec... If current web frameworks became JSF compliant, lock-in would be greatly reduced.
    Hi Henrique,

    If I use IDE A and one of its component, created a WAR for the app. When I import the WAR file into say IDE B, will I still be able to tweak the UI from IDE A?

    Thanks
  104. Talking about lock-in[ Go to top ]

    Say, if I create a fancy calendar UI component in JSF, it should be able to run on any compliant JSF implementation, you just have to package its tld and classes in the war file. That's the beauty of a spec... If current web frameworks became JSF compliant, lock-in would be greatly reduced.
    Hi Henrique,If I use IDE A and one of its component, created a WAR for the app. When I import the WAR file into say IDE B, will I still be able to tweak the UI from IDE A?Thanks
    I am not a JSF expert, but AFAIK the implementation of the components themselves dont have be portable, the spec defines a group of interfaces and rules for a component to work within a JSF no matter how it is implemented in the "background". So yes, a component created in an specific IDE could show some grips when taken to another IDE, but I can't come up with an example, being these components all standard Java files.

    Maybe someone in the JSF forum can give more details regarding this:
    http://forum.java.sun.com/forum.jsp?forum=427
    That's where the specialists are! ;)

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  105. Management that create a Framework[ Go to top ]

    I hear that Accenture have a framework, and they have a lot of clever smart and create a propietary framework that can map their expertise in management consulting, restructuring multinational company, and bla bla bla. into a single framework? I think this is more crazy lockin rather than community framework lockin, we can get the source code, we can complain to the world that the code is bad, and contribute to fix it. That is better? I see Oracle Workflow for Java or any framework that propiertary is strick to lock us.

    for the leader of open source framework, be wise, and keep listen to the community, and be part of us. :) We love use your work, and I personally want to say thanks, you make my life better, esp if I compare with my 6 year skill in VB that make me sad, because Microsoft kick my as, by make VB.net is not a same technology, that make me have to sleep with new book from Microsoft Press.