Paul Browne: Open Java changes Everything

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News: Paul Browne: Open Java changes Everything

  1. Paul Browne: Open Java changes Everything (10 messages)

    Now that the dust is beginning to settle on Sun’s decision to open source Java, what does it actually mean for you? According to "Open Java changes Everything," on O'Reilly:
    - In the medium term (between 6 and 24 months) expect some interesting packagings of Java to emerge, similar to the way the various Linux Distros work today. - Java will become more like .Net with multiple languages running in the standard JVM. We have JRuby and Groovy. It wouldn’t be too hard to add C# to this list. - Oracle, IBM, SAP and others already committed to the Java market will become focussed on Java as an even bigger part of the core strategy. Just like the app server market, each will seek to differentiate themselves, perhaps by Service (IBM), by a core database (Oracle) or by leading a niche (SAP). Expect tension between the desire to differentiate (and fragment) and the GPL which seeks to 'bind them all.' - Microsoft .Net will end up in a 'death march' with Java trying to gain a lead in a feature set. Open source is very good a mimicking existing products (as it makes an easy spec for dispersed developers to write on - just look at Open Office), so (unless software patents get thrown into the mix), it's hard to see .Net getting a fundamental and lasting edge over the Java Ecosystem.
    What's your opinion on Browne's predictions? Will there be 'packagings of Java' similar to Linux Distros? What would they have in them? Message was edited by: joeo@enigmastation.com

    Threaded Messages (10)

  2. Java will become more like .Net with multiple languages running in the standard JVM. We have JRuby and Groovy. It wouldn’t be too hard to add C# to this list.
    I am a bit skeptical about this. Firstly, there may be things done with the JVM source code that allow more languages to run, but that matters is the implemenation called 'Java'. That will still take time to change, as should be the case. Secondly, there have been far more languages running on the JVM than on .NET for years. What matters is how efficiently they run, and unless the official certified JVM is changed significantly, this situation won't change hugely. I really don't see open sourcing changing that much, let alone everything.
  3. Going GPL is all about the bundling. Sun made the right call to get maximum penetration by betting on Linux and allowing Java to be bundled with it. With Linux as a carrier, Microsoft can expect death by distro whatever the mutation (Novell, Oracle, Redhat, Ubuntu).
  4. Re: Paul Browne: Open Java changes Everything[ Go to top ]

    Java will become more like .Net with multiple languages running in the standard JVM. We have JRuby and Groovy. It wouldn’t be too hard to add C# to this list.


    I am a bit skeptical about this. Firstly, there may be things done with the JVM source code that allow more languages to run, but that matters is the implemenation called 'Java'. That will still take time to change, as should be the case. Secondly, there have been far more languages running on the JVM than on .NET for years. What matters is how efficiently they run, and unless the official certified JVM is changed significantly, this situation won't change hugely.

    I really don't see open sourcing changing that much, let alone everything.
    I can see the point of JRuby/Groovy. But not C# in the JVM. When I do .Net I do C# not J#. In fact, I don't install J# when I install VS.Net.
  5. Java will become more like .Net with multiple languages running in the standard JVM. We have JRuby and Groovy. It wouldn’t be too hard to add C# to this list.


    I am a bit skeptical about this. Firstly, there may be things done with the JVM source code that allow more languages to run, but that matters is the implemenation called 'Java'. That will still take time to change, as should be the case. Secondly, there have been far more languages running on the JVM than on .NET for years. What matters is how efficiently they run, and unless the official certified JVM is changed significantly, this situation won't change hugely.

    I really don't see open sourcing changing that much, let alone everything.


    I can see the point of JRuby/Groovy. But not C# in the JVM. When I do .Net I do C# not J#. In fact, I don't install J# when I install VS.Net.
    I think J# is the worst choice...I don't install it either. I wonder if there is a real need for JVM to run that many languages. I think plain o' java does it well with applications started from scratch. But when it comes to integrating complex sub-systems, some of them written in c/c++ (or other more fancy langs...), it would be nice if such a JVM could bind them toghether. I am more interested in having the current JVM implementations improved with regards to APIs and performance. Will open sourcing tuck these? There is so much buzz about this open-sourcing, but ultimately we're interested in a JVM that performs well and is stable enough in systems we deploy
  6. I really don't see open sourcing changing that much, let alone everything.
    Probably not. I've been really surprised as the lack of response to the announcement, but then when I think about it, it doesn't seem like much will really change. The only exception seems to be that people will have an easier time distributing binaries of the JRE. So ISVs selling shrink-wrapped software won't need to get Sun's permission before including a JRE on the CD. And of course Linux distros. But it never seemed like Sun was against anyone distributing the JRE or the JDK, so I can't imagine this is that big of a difference to anyone but GPL zealots.
  7. What's your opinion on Browne's predictions?
    He lives in a fantasy world.
    Will there be 'packagings of Java' similar to Linux Distros? What would they have in them?
    Yeah, Billy down the street might cobble up some "java distro", but will it be relevant? Does Sourceforge Billy have the technical chops to actually do something to the JVM that will give it some kind of edge?
    - Java will become more like .Net with multiple languages running in the standard JVM. We have JRuby and Groovy. It wouldn’t be too hard to add C# to this list.
    And what does the open source fairy have to do with more languages on the JVM? There's the big list http://www.robert-tolksdorf.de/vmlanguages.html of JVM languages that is littered with the corpses of projects that were never really languages, or never made it out of alpha stage. Is Sourceforge Billy going to change the VM so it's more conducive to running more languages? You've got Groovy, JRuby, Jython(is it still alive?), Scala, and a neat Haskell-like language called CAL by the guys at Business Objects. The Nice language could have carved a little niche for itself, but it just never got past that remaining, hard 5%.
    - Microsoft .Net will end up in a 'death march' with Java trying to gain a lead in a feature set. Open source is very good a mimicking existing products (as it makes an easy spec for dispersed developers to write on - just look at Open Office), so (unless software patents get thrown into the mix), it's hard to see .Net getting a fundamental and lasting edge over the Java Ecosystem.
    "Death march...feature set"? Oh my, more geek drama. What feature sets are you talking about? I doubt Microsoft is going to devolve the .NET VM to match the JVM. I doubt Microsoft is going to dumb down C# to match Java. Someone thwap the guy with a cluestick. They call it the server side for a reason.
  8. Original Author Responds...[ Go to top ]

    As the author of the original post on O'Reilly , I'd like to respond to a couple of the comments made:
    • There may have been many languages running previously in the JVM , but until now many of these were outside of the mainstream. Open source levels the playing field and gives Non-Java JVM languages more respectability.
    • You may not want C# in the JVM , but there may be other people who do. Open source is all about choice , right?
    • You'll have different flavours of Java for the same reason you have different distros of Linux. Some may only have 10 users, but in that niche, that version of Java will perfectly meet the users needs (e.g. Ultra Secure, small footprint, Back port of features from newer versions etc)
    • Microsoft dumbing down C#? What we've seen is healthy competition, with some of the latest features of Java being a response to Redmonds efforts (and vice Versa). (Remember , choice is good).
    • A requirement for many languages to run in the one JVM? There are many reasons, my own particular one is that I want a rapid-web-development environment (e.g. PHP or Ruby) to run against core Enterprise Java Features e.g. JBoss Workflow (JBPM) or JBoss Rules (Drools)
    Paul , Technology in Plain English
  9. Re: Original Author Responds...[ Go to top ]

    There may have been many languages running previously in the JVM , but until now many of these were outside of the mainstream. Open source levels the playing field and gives Non-Java JVM languages more respectability.
    I am really not sure what you mean here. Was JRuby any less respectable before the announcement of the open sourcing of Java?
    You'll have different flavours of Java for the same reason you have different distros of Linux. Some may only have 10 users, but in that niche, that version of Java will perfectly meet the users needs (e.g. Ultra Secure, small footprint, Back port of features from newer versions etc)
    But these won't be 'Java', or at least most of them won't - would an implementation for 10 users be put through the compatibility tests?
  10. Re: Original Author Responds...[ Go to top ]

    Mark, You are correct: these distros will not be Java, because Sun jealously guards the Java Brand name. But they will be Java-like. Your choice if this is good enough for you, but will be good enough for some people. Good comment on JRuby. It's got a good following in the community, especially now that the authors are working for Sun. Now that JVM is open source, JRuby folks (and everybody else) have equal access to it , just the same as the team that look after the Java language. There can be no institutional politics saying 'we won't let you have that information' and any suggestions that they make are considered on the same merits as everybody else. That's what makes JRuby more respectable (increased access and influence over the future of the JVM), not any flaw within the JRuby project itself. Paul , Technology in Plain English
  11. Re: Original Author Responds...[ Go to top ]

    Mark,
    Steve :)
    You are correct: these distros will not be Java, because Sun jealously guards the Java Brand name. But they will be Java-like. Your choice if this is good enough for you, but will be good enough for some people.
    Maybe this is short-sighted of me, but I really hope not. Java's portability and compatibility has been key to its success. Having many almost-Java-like implementations with even relatively minor incompatibilities is, in my opinion, just what we don't need.
    Good comment on JRuby. It's got a good following in the community, especially now that the authors are working for Sun.
    I think this is slightly unfair on the authors of JRuby - my impression is that they got hired because they already had a good following, and were doing good work.
    Now that JVM is open source, JRuby folks (and everybody else) have equal access to it , just the same as the team that look after the Java language. There can be no institutional politics saying 'we won't let you have that information' and any suggestions that they make are considered on the same merits as everybody else.
    Information about the JVM and source has always been available, just not under 'open source' conditions. Any increased influence that the JRuby people have is surely because they are doing good work, and also working for Sun. Just because a project is open source, does not mean that institutional politics disappear, or that everyone's contributions are considered to be of the same merit.
    That's what makes JRuby more respectable (increased access and influence over the future of the JVM)
    There was aready considerable interest in making the JVM more suited to dynamic languages a long time before the JRuby guys were hired, although things seem to have picked speed. There were already respectable dynamic language projects on the JVM, including JSRs (BeanShell and Groovy). Any influence that the JRuby project has is irrelevant to the open sourcing of Java - they were already hired. I am afraid I still haven't heard anything to convince me that open sourceing Java really changes that much.