JavaFX, are we there yet?

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News: JavaFX, are we there yet?

  1. JavaFX, are we there yet? (27 messages)

    Today, Sun has finally decided to make good on their promise of JavaONE 2007 by making a pre-release of JavaFX available today. With this release, JavaFX finally becomes a little less vapor and a little more ware But the question remains, does JavaFX have what it will take to claim back the desktop in the face of stiff competition from the likes of Adobe and Microsoft? JavaFX has had it's fair share of critics each casting their own dispersions. Some have said that Sun has bet their lunch money on making JavaFX work; money better spent where they are work best, on the server. While one can discuss the merits of that criticism, the bigger question is; is JavaFX too little too late? Read the rest of Kirk's analysis at http://www.kodewerk.com/javafx_are_we_there_yet.htm.

    Threaded Messages (27)

  2. no we are not there[ Go to top ]

    As per comment support forum: http://forums.java.net/jive/forum.jspa?forumID=79&start=0 - 6.10 when it ships will not: - support firefox 2 - support apple osx (not in "browser" mode) - many bugs, most going back to 2001 http://lopica.sourceforge.net/faq.html Big picture is deployment, http://onflex.org on left shows deployment of Flash. When will 6.10 end users have that deployment? No end users = no developers. And Sun marketing that they are making it easier to deploy is not same as end users finding it easier to deploy. So no, we are not there, and at rate Flash and Flash 10 is expanding the lead, looks like lost. I would say SilverLight is in 2nd place. I am not even saying Java is in 3rd place. .V
  3. no we are not there[ Go to top ]

    I should have said on top right (not left) of onFlex.org shows # of Flash. Also this is a better summary: http://blog.ogoglio.com/2008/01/the-java-experi.html .V
  4. Re: no we are not there[ Go to top ]

    You mean THAT many people get "You Must download the latest Adobe Flash Player every few months"? Wow.
  5. yeah my toolbar java icon keep telling me new version of jvm is available to download so does windows media player and most of the software and nothing wrong with it. you can disable js in browser and cry whole day saying I can't access my bank account or whatever
  6. Re: no we are not there[ Go to top ]

    hmmm, IMO, Adobe has a tougher challenge. Flash, ok, I get it. But AIR? A crappy native API with a hook into webkit. Java with the Consumer JRE and JWebPane gets you _ALL_ of the JVM with a hook into webkit. Any challenge to Flash will be tough simply b/c of the existing footprint. There are definitely holes still left to be filled, but it's not impossible, and I think its more likely then ever.
  7. JavaFX is a Fiasco[ Go to top ]

    JavaFX is a Fiasco, It will fail for sure everybody feels that. Instead Sun Microsystems should focus more efforts in Java7, JVM, Java on the Desktop with already proven technologies Java/Swing, Groovy etc, It's wasting time and money in something nobody care. Java desktop on Macs have a lot of problems, JavaFX doesn't work well on Linux so it only works on Windows but after 1 year we don't have something functional. Java on the desktop is totally broken and I think JavaFX doesn't fix nothing about it. We had JavaOne 07 and JavaOne 08 with only promises and nothing done. I call this a Fiasco as before with the EJB fiasco and almost all what comes from Sun it doesn't work. It did work only one time Sun did the right thing with Java the language in 1995 when they launched Java but that's all.
  8. Re: JavaFX is a Fiasco[ Go to top ]

    Java desktop on Macs have a lot of problems .... Java on the desktop is totally broken and I think JavaFX doesn't fix nothing about it.
    Have you tried Java 6 Update 10? It improves Java on the desktop in a lot of areas. Most everything on the Mac, including Java, will remain exactly as Apple wants it. In the case of Java, that apparently means well behind all other major platforms. That's Apple's choice, not Sun's.
  9. Re: JavaFX is a Fiasco[ Go to top ]

    Well yes Java 6_10 improves Java on Windows but on another platforms still sucks. So the Write Once Run Anywhere is BROKEN, Java multiplatform is a joke if you ask me, So if Java works ok as you said in Windows why not better me and everybody move to C# and .Net is better platform right now for Windows Desktop development than Java. WRONG, Lets fix Java and enjoy the success of Java but this is what I'm saying SUN have to do something about because SUN has been doing mistakes by mistakes every year with Java desktop, It's broken because SUN from the past they didn't care from the beginning about it. They ware happy just with the server side(business for SUN, that's why proprietary languages sucks, anyway now Java is opensource), that's why I said Java on the Desktop is Broken and JavaFX what brings to the table?, Nothing, NADA just a Buzz and Marketing from Sun, JavaFX doesn't fix nothing, it only brings another layer of API's and a scripting language to learn and not improve nothing. Also the designer tools doesn't exist and it will never exist because Adobe with Photoshop and Ilustrator is ages front of what SUN could develop, So designers of JavaFX will have to use Adobe tools, What a joke the same tools as Flex,Better I use Flex it is more integrated with adobe tools. Also JavaFX syntax is not what Sun promised to be that it will be designer friendly, actually now JavaFX is another programming language, for designers will be very high the learning curve, Also why reinvent the wheel, there was groovy language, javascript etc. I'm wasting my time with this and with something that really doesn't have a future and sucks. For me Java the language and the JVM still Great but I will not bite the buzz again, not anymore. 2c.
  10. first things first[ Go to top ]

    Fix java on the desktop first. I'm not interested in new API or new frameworks until the jvm on the desktop is fixed. Sorry but update 10 does not _fix_ java on the desktop. Yes, I have tried it. No, I'm not going to give you specifics, it has all been said too many times before. No, I'm not a java basher. I actually love working in java, just wish it was more of a contender on the front end side.
  11. Re: first things first[ Go to top ]

    One of the things that has bothered me about applets is the need to have admin rights on the machine in order to be able to install the JVM in the first place. This was, in my opinion, the single most important factor (apart from downloading approx. 16 MB of JVM) in acceptability of applets for developing intranet applications for enterprises. I dont think JavaFx changes this, only that the size of the JVM may go down to 4 MB. And so will not the true zero deployment alternatives have an edge over JavaFx when it come to applications in the enterprise world? Deepak
  12. Re: first things first[ Go to top ]

    I have spoken with JavaFX people and maybe I bashed to much JavaFX, Also they told me JavaFX still now in preview stage so they told me to wait to the release, So OK lets wait and see how it goes with JavaFX on the release. I hope JavaFX and Java6_10 is a success because this can be a win win for Java. Best Regards. PS. SUN please do it right this time and also please we need closures and type inference in Java 7.
  13. Re: first things first[ Go to top ]

    Well, I haven't experience that lately. I actually work in financial services with a Java application that runs on the desktop, and most of the resistance has been with mindsets that are outdated. In fact, in some of the most locked down environments I have seen, there is a version of Java (and .net) already on the corporate image, albeit not the one we needed. Also, I would think about how much of the runtime is already out there in the field preinstalled in the consumer and the enterprise markets. Part of this is cart, part of it the horse, but I wouldn't discount it wholesale myself. The only true zero deployment is in the web browser, and yes that includes Flash/Flex (but not Air b/c its an install right?). I would recommend trying to install the latest Flash 10 player in beta, then go to an old site and see what the experience is. Everything has similar challenges in varying degrees. It's just the critical mass that everyone seems to be focusing on.
  14. Re: JavaFX, are we there yet?[ Go to top ]

    is JavaFX too little too late?
    Only the future will tell. If the past is any indication, the answer would have to be no.
  15. Is JavaFX too late?[ Go to top ]

    is JavaFX too little too late?
    Only the future will tell. If the past is any indication, the answer would have to be no.
    I absolutely agree with Mark on this. Was Microsoft to late with Internet Explorer in 1995? Was Mozilla to late with Firefox? Or did both get back afterall? I would like to see myself use the language I know and love for the back-end for the front-end as well.
  16. Re: JavaFX, are we there yet?[ Go to top ]

    Correct me If I'm wrong.. you still need JRE/ME to run Java FX applications? What is the benefit of FX compared to Swing (except marketing issues)? Java FX Script seems to be just another scripting language you can easily mix view layout and controller/model logic. And the actual programming with this great new scripting language does not seem that revolutionary. Java FX script seems like JSP... When that was invented, it was soon realized that we need to separate from view and actual program by creating web application frameworks. I see that you can mix Java code and Java FX, but why to create a new scripting language Java FX Script? Wouldn't standard XML user interface language with pure Java/Groovy for any actual coding be a better solution?
  17. If developers get excited about a technology, they will use it just because and users will come. Period. JavaFX must however must not have any perceived hurdle to end users. No doubt about that. Make it difficult and your effort is futile. Is JavaFX late in the game? Not at all UNLESS... It makes it fun for developers. No success is late to any party. My problem is with Sun. What assurance will they give us that they would not continue to fail on expectations made?
  18. If developers get excited about a technology, they will use it just because and users will come. Period.
    Right. That's exactly what happened with ... Applets? I sure was pretty excited about them, back in 1999. Been bit more quiet since then, though. /Henri Karapuu
  19. Must be easy on end users[ Go to top ]

    You missed the second statement which is a condition: javaFx must "just works" with end users. That's exactly where applets/Sun failed. And that's where my concern remains, with Sun and not the end users.
  20. Re: Must be easy on end users[ Go to top ]

    You missed the second statement which is a condition: javaFx must "just works" with end users. That's exactly where applets/Sun failed. And that's where my concern remains, with Sun and not the end users.
    That is why Sun has been working hard on the JVM. I believe that was the issue and not Applets themselves.
  21. If developers get excited about a technology, they will use it just because and users will come. Period.


    Right. That's exactly what happened with ... Applets?

    I sure was pretty excited about them, back in 1999.

    Been bit more quiet since then, though.

    /Henri Karapuu
    \ Yes because people wanted web app technology and since Sun is a business ... .
  22. javafx will likely fail[ Go to top ]

    because designer pool already locked up with adobe tools. flash, flex, illustrator, photoshop, etc. all designed to work together. big on ramp for flash vm. and, flex's markup language is similar to xhtml, supports css, and as3 is very similar to javascript. so, that's another on-ramp for flash vm. the only on-ramp javafx has going for it are java developers. and they don't typically have good design sense for creating interaction UI correctly or engaging, dramatic eye-candy required to sell management on a new technology. instead, sun should have partnered with flash/flex to make those technologies interoperate seamlessly with server side java. i also expect silverlight to flop in the short-term for the same reasons, though long term, microsoft has the bank account to purchase and bundle designer tools. given microsoft sees the desktop os going bye-bye, they probably will make whatever investment necessary to make this strategy work.
  23. Re: javafx will likely fail[ Go to top ]

    because designer pool already locked up with adobe tools. flash, flex, illustrator, photoshop, etc. all designed to work together. big on ramp for flash vm.
    True, still, there is Project Nile which has plugins for Photoshop and Illustrator as well as a Scalable Vector Graphics converter. Thus, the designers can continue to work with Photoshop and simply save their creations as .fx-files.
  24. Re: javafx will likely fail[ Go to top ]

    i did not know this. thank you daniel.
  25. Re: javafx will likely fail[ Go to top ]



    instead, sun should have partnered with flash/flex to make those technologies interoperate seamlessly with server side java
    +1. Just for the laughs,I think Sun won't do it cos it would make some difficult things easy!
  26. javafx[ Go to top ]

    SUN needs to provide reliable and easy to install runtime platform for javafx. If it's not there it won't matter how cool the language or designer tools are.
  27. I tried the preview release and it use to be simpler. For example, a simple hello world was coded as follows Frame { width: 200 height: 50 content: Label { text: “Hello World” } visible: true } I noticed this yesterday when I created a Frame in Netbeans, stage: Stage { } still learning here … but I’m hoping that they don’t move away from the simplicity that was first visioned and they stay true to concepts that are easily recognizable by a ui designer. I am sure there is good reason for this but adding stuff that a programmer would only understand will seriously detract from the usability aspect and not to mention the ability to clearly see the relationship between layout and code.
  28. No.[ Go to top ]

    No.