Discussions

News: JBoss open source app. server integrates with Cocobase O/R

  1. JBoss Group LLC, a commercial company regrouping developers from the JBoss Open Source application server, today announced their decision to broaden their offerings for the enterprise level developer with CocoBase Enterprise O/R, an object-to-relational mapping tool, optimized for EJB.

    This new integration will open new doors for jBoss application developers. Practically speaking however, with Cocobase priced at $5000/developer (and jBoss being free), I wonder if the type of developer that uses jBoss is also the same type that would pay for that much money for an enterprise-grade O/R mapper.

    Thoughts?



    Press Release
    ------------------
    SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 17 /PRNewswire/ -- JBoss Group LLC, a commercial company regrouping developers from the state-of-the-art JBoss Open Source application server, today announced their decision to broaden their offerings for the enterprise level developer with CocoBase Enterprise O/R, the leading object-to-relational mapping tool, optimized for EJB and Java. CocoBase enables the developer to automatically generate, map and deploy CMP/BMP Entity, Session Beans, JSPs effortlessly from its editable templates for JBoss. The powerful and patented mapping technology used in CocoBase Enterprise O/R simplifies relational data persistence for JBoss applications

    ''JBoss's commitment to their customer is exemplified by their decision to offer an open and extensible solution like CocoBase Enterprise O/R with their own open-source application server. Together, we deliver flexible and customizable persistence that can easily adapt to all their customers' needs,'' said Ward Mullins, CTO of THOUGHT Inc.

    ''With 50,000 downloads per month, JBoss is pleased to offer its wide user base the possibility of working with CocoBase's high-end O/R mapping tool. Our CocoBase affiliate offering is part of our commitment to providing a broad range of JBoss-compatible products to enhance the choice of add-on tools available with our free product,'' said Marc Fleury, CEO of JBoss Group LLC.

    The CocoBase Enterprise O/R Mapping tool provides JBoss developers' rapid development with fine-grained, fully extendable, Object to Relational mapping layer. CocoBase is an easy-to-use, standards compliant, dynamic persistence layer. Recent advances include its full integration with any XMI/UML(TM) Modeling Tool (i.e. Rational Rose) enabling the developers ability to generate class tables directly from their XMI/UML(TM) Models and its ability to provide dynamic transparent persistence over either local and distributed environments.

    About JBoss

    JBoss is a state-of-the-art, Open Source application server based on the Java 2 Enterprise Edition (J2EE(TM)) specification from SUN Microsystems. As an Open Source implementation, JBoss is available free of charge. Implemented in 100% Pure Java, it is also platform-independent. The JBoss website averages approximately 50,000 downloads of its application a month as reported by Sourceforge.com. Its primary user base consists of independent software vendors, system integrators and consultants.

    In addition to their community of 1000 international developers, JBoss Group LLC, a commercial company based in Atlanta, Georgia, is comprised of specialists dedicated to providing services around the JBoss platform. These services take the form of support, training, consulting and JBoss-related software sales. http://www.jboss.org/index.jsp .

    About THOUGHT Inc.

    Established in 1993, THOUGHT Inc. is the market leader in dynamic o/r mapping, optimized for EJB and java. THOUGHT Inc. has been shipping CocoBase, the patented flagship product and the industry's most advanced solution for accessing legacy data in a distributed application since March of 1997. Since that time, THOUGHT Inc. founders have successfully provided solutions for customers deploying applications on the Worldwide Web and have gained a reputation for excellence in their field. CocoBase is a standards-based product relying on such technologies as RMI, CORBA, JDBC, EJB, etc. THOUGHT Inc., with offices in San Francisco and Paris support their customers in the United States, Europe, Japan, Asia and Australia. CocoBase and THOUGHT Inc. are registered trademarks of THOUGHT Inc. CocoBase technology is based on US patent #5857197. More information on THOUGHT Inc. can be found online at www.thoughtinc.com.

    Threaded Messages (20)

  2. Hi Floyd,

    when you say "I wonder if the type of developer that uses jBoss is also the same type that would pay for that much money for an enterprise-grade O/R mapper" you imply that JBoss is not enterprise-grade.
    You're certainly right most users of JBoss are looking for a free alternative to the heavy-weight (speaking of price tags) application servers. But there's a growing number of people who are seeing it as a viable production system (including me). So what bothers me is this somewhat subliminal propaganda of "what's free is good for nothing".
    But to come back to the press release, it may seem strange to get a full application server for free and to pay for a O/R mapper but I don't have a problem with that. Why not?

    I don't think it will get Cocobase a few thousand new users, but a few. And for JBoss it's nice to show that there's commercial support for it outside the opensource community.

    Fabian
  3. Hey Fabian,

      Thanks for voicing your opinion here. You are certainly right.

      I think jBoss is a great product and I know of quite a few projects using it in production. I also know that many of those projects are budget constrained, which was the basis for my initial question.

    Floyd
  4. This is where the complexity of server side apps kick in. O/R mapping is not easy or fun. It is hard to do for - "free" - right now. Not to say that we eventually will have a good open source O/R tool. (We may have one already?!)

    My thoughts and observations...

    1) JBoss IS getting used my some serious projects. Not "shopping cart applications" but some serious systems that need complex solutions. Integration of Coco Base will give JBoss users a nice slew of much needed features that makes it even more "enterprise ready".

    2) The JBoss team has some smart people who are not just writing a "free" product but a deployable solution that is attractive to REAL enterprise users. They are aware of very large application needs. They probably have had to write their own O/R mappings on projects and never want to do it again.

    3) Coco Base is recognizing that JBoss is a good product to integrate with.

    4) Developers are finally realizing that getting data out of an object to store in an RDBMS is not fun. And that getting it back from the RDBMS to an object is not fun and easy either. (Well not as easy and fun as an RDBMS vendor would want you all to think!)

    5) Objects RULE! (I have no idea what this point has to do with the whole COCO Base integration but I just needed to let everyone know.)

    Greg
  5. Thanks Greg. You bring up a good point. JBoss achieves further validation of its important place in the industry with this recognitition from Cocobase.

    >5) Objects RULE! (I have no idea what this point has to do
    >with the whole COCO Base integration but I just needed to
    >let everyone know.)

    BTW, I own the objectzealot.com domain name if your interested. :)

    Floyd
  6. Am I the only one who doesn't mind coding in SQL and JDBC?
    Could be my background. I've done a lot of stored
    procedure programming for SQL Server and have coded a lot
    of COM objects that represent relational data.

    Just wondering, because I get the impression that people
    here seem to strongly dislike SQL and JDBC coding. =)

    Jason
  7. Hi Jason,


    I've seen both: projects that failed because it was too difficult to debug mile long sql statements and projects that damn slow because everything was done via entity beans.
    So if you have the money and if it's necessary get yourself Cocobase or whatever and you'll get ease of use (relativley speaking), rapid development and speed. Hmm, I knew there was a reason to use a real OR mapper.
  8. In the same line, JOnAS, another open source EJB implementation, is also used by quite a few projects in production.

    The Lutris http://www.lutris.com EAS server includes JOnAS components in a commercial product.
    Similarly, users could prefer to buy Lutris EAS rather than using JOnAS directly, maybe for the commercial support, maybe for the other added-value technology provided by Lutris.

         alex
  9. There are many reason why people will chose JBoss instead of other app server, but one of the most important is probably $!

    Paying 0$ for JBoss but 5000$ for CocoBase... there is something wrong in the numbers!?
  10. $5000 per server or per CPU? I have used Toplink for my peristence layer. It was free for deployment (Toplink charged 3000 per developer and free for deployment). The latest release, they charge $8000 per CPU for deployment.

    Will Cocobase do the same thing as TopLink? I think that people are using JBoss is because it is free and good. $5000 seems not too bad to build an enterprise system. But, what should we do if they follow Toplink on the licensing?

    Have anyone heard about mvcsoft? I heard that they are very cheap but no idea how good they are?

    Tony

  11. I believe it is $5000.00 per developer with no run time royalties, which means $0 / server or cpu.
  12. I've done a lot of stuff in ASP and VB. I just started to learn JSP, Java, and J2EE stuff just because of two reason.
        1. Platform independent
        2. Alot of java tools are free
    Now they want to charge $5000 hmmmm. should I reconsider about this whole thing?

    just my opinion.
  13. I current work in a finance house and we can only use JBoss for development and I doubt that will change - ie getting it onto a production server is a LONG way away simply because it is opensource.

    Paying 5k per developer for an OR tool for JBoss is irrelevant, getting an OR tool that works for Weblogic/websphere and also for JBoss is probably more of a winner.

    So the 5K tag means you simply do not mention JBoss, i.e. its an OR mapper for websphere, silverstream, j2EE etc etc, and it also supports the popular JBoss app server.

    Any OR mapping tool should be app server independant. Dropping the JBoss name from the marketing would probably be a good move as well....

    Jonathan

  14. Um, this is from JBoss marketing...so I doubt they will drop their own name :)
  15. Duc,
    This $5000 is for Cocobase not JBoss itself. JBoss is still Open Source and therefore has no licensing costs involved (TOC is another thing altogether, of course). Many commercial Application Servers cost substantially more than $5000, so this is not a surprising cost.

  16. Duc,

    The $5000 is only if you use the Cocobase product, not jBoss by itself. jBoss is not going to suddenly require you to use Cocobase for all O/R mapping in your application. They are just making it easy to integrate within jBoss (probably configured through their JMX interfaces).

    Any application complex enough to really need the Cocobase project should have enough budget to handle $5000 for an O/R tool license cost.

    On a different thread, I think that there's nothing wrong with writing your own persistence management framework. A tool like Cocobase is good in certain scenarios but not others necessarily so you need a framework that allows for the use of different types of persistence mechanisms without changing the interfaces into your persistence layer.
  17. Has anyone done a comparison between Castor and Cocobase? I have been using Castor for quite some time now, and I think it's pretty good. No distributed cache though, but good for small to medium sized projects.

    Keith
  18. MVCSoft is an incredible product and at price of $200 per developer with no other deployment costs it is also an incredible value. The support is excellent, and everytime I think of a feature (like fault groups on relationships or caching options) it has already been in progess in the latest development release. Our project is still under development using mvcsoft and jboss, but the results so far have been fantastic. Now that it works across several app servers, it also allows complete portability. I can not say enough good things about this product.

    -Darren
  19. MVCSoft is an incredible product and at price of $200 per developer with no other deployment costs it is also an incredible value. The support is excellent, and everytime I think of a feature (like fault groups on relationships or caching options) it has already been in progess in the latest development release. Our project is still under development using mvcsoft and jboss, but the results so far have been fantastic. Now that it works across several app servers, it also allows complete portability. I can not say enough good things about this product.

    -Darren
  20. I'd consider it. JBoss is a great app server. If I need that extended o/r mapping, $5K isn't that much. I certainly don't need any other app server than jboss for the time being.
  21. 5,000 for an O/R tool?

    Oracle's JDeveloper comes with an O/R tool called BC4J and the complete Java IDE (plus UML, Tuning tools and full XML support) including the O/R cost less than COCOBASE.