Will .Net take down Java in 2002?

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News: Will .Net take down Java in 2002?

  1. Will .Net take down Java in 2002? (25 messages)

    According to survey by ComponentSource, based on more than 150,000 responses from developers that use ComponentSource, 79 percent of organizations are evaluating or planning to evaluate .Net components in the next year, while only 14 percent are evaluating or planning to evaluate EJB within the same timeframe.

    http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-2001/jw-1019-iw-netvsjava_p.html.

    Floyd's note:
    One thing to keep in mind about the validity of these results is that Component Source has historically been a vendor of MS Components, and has diversified into Java in the last couple of years. Thus, it makes sense that most of their users would be thinking of MS before Java. :)

    Threaded Messages (25)

  2. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    That's interesting. It sounds pretty skewed. I know that I don't know 150,000 developers, but I do know quite a few. Off the cuff, I can't think of a single one considering .net. I know plenty that are still using relatively simple ASP, but are not considering moving to .net until it is far more tested and proven.

    I guess the real questions are;
    Where are these developers and who do they work for?
    How were the questions asked? (This one is especially importatnt)
    What's the statistiacle methodology used?

    Blah blah. This sounds kind of like the fight that Oracle and BEA were having back at JavaOne. Just more GIGO.

    -Newt

  3. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Wait a minute, let me think it through and rationalize this, we are practically at the end of October 2001, which gives .NET, according to this article, give or take 14 months to take Java down and when did the beta version for .NET come out, if I am not wrong early this year, now isn't that being a little optimistic, by the time MS can get rid of its .NET 1.0 bugs it might take 2003, so if the thought of .NET taking on Java in 2002 sounds ridiculous I can only imagine what the thought flow might have been to say .NET might take Java down in 2002. I have just one question, Where did the survey take place, within the 4 walls of MS??

    Krishna

  4. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Also to be considered is J2EE (as J2EE) as been around longer that .NET (as .NET). So some of the evaluation stats could be committed J2EE developers just trying to satisfy the curiosity. At least this holds true for me!
  5. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    It's very important to know how the question was framed (i.e. the exact wording and context of the question).

    Possibly, these developers aren't evaluating or planning to evaluate EJB because they've already completed their evaluations of EJB and are busy using the technology!

    Furthermore, as Floyd notes, ComponentSource developers have an historical leaning towards Microsoft.

    The article states, "Microsoft has more ISVs in its corner than does Sun." But, by the same token, J2EE has much wider industry support (i.e. Java Community Process) than .NET (which has none)!
  6. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    I believe that many respondents probably were indicating their intent to evaluate .Net, but not specifically ".Net components".

    This is not a like-for-like comparison, but more like asking someone if they were more likely to use:

    a) a computer mouse, or
    b) the computer keyboard's Shift-PrintScreen combination

    and then claiming that the computer keyboard is becoming passe.
  7. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    maybe all those developers say they are planning on evaluating .Net because they can't figure
    out what it is from what Microsoft has been saying.

    I know I still don't have a clear idea of what .Net includes.
  8. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    .Net not yet...so time being .only Ha! Ha! Ha!
  9. As a person who has used Java and J2EE for more that three years and who is working on .Net, C#, XML, SOAP and BizTalk now, here is what I feel.

    If you plan to use only Windows based paltforms, C# is a more feature rich language than Java, barring the absence of checked exceptions. C# provides a lot of object orientated patterns as language features. However, J2EE as an enterprise framework overwhelmingly feature rich than .Net. J2EE provides stateless, stateful, asynchronous message driven, container managed and component managed persistent components. Where .Net provides only a single stateless servived enterprise component. .Net's idea of declarative service management (transaction demarcaton for example) is ver wierd, where the transactional properties are tightly coupled to the component. This is because they are defined as the attribute declaration feature available in C# for classes, methods and variables. Whereas the J2EE way of using XML based deployment descriptors is fantastic.

    However, Microsoft's support for XML and all the related technolgies like XSLT, XPath, SOAP, WSDL etc are lot better than that provided by the Java. BixTalk is a wonderful product for message orientated middleware.
  10. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Well, I am not sure how .Net can take down Java in 2002 since there are lots of J2EE projects already started or will start.

    But, I'd agree that Sun and the Java community should do more things together. JCP is a good start but it takes too long. In my opinion, I feel that we are wasting quite a lot of talents in the Java community. I recently downloaded several open-source projects from sourcesurge.net. I found that some projects duplicated quite a lot of codes, most projects contain a StringUtil class and most functions are the same but just different implementation. It is just an example; I hope that you get a point. We need to compete with Microsoft and at the mean time, we are duplicated our effects on a same thing.

    I also found that someone starts putting a collection of utilities to sourcesurge.net. I believe that it is a good start.

    Sometime, I asked myself why BEA, Sun and Borland work together to develop a cheap and robust application server instead of writing their own versions. SilverStream is a good product and it has several excellent ideas such as Page Editor(object-oriented). However, the market share of Silversteam looks to me is going down. of course, competition drives good products.. On the other hand, Microsoft can put all its resource to .Net.

    Is there something wrong?
    Tony




  11. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Hi Tony
    I wanted to look at some open sources sites.
    I am unable to get to sourcesurge.net .Is it the right address.
    Thanks
    Jack
  12. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Hi jack, sorry for the mispelled.

    http://sourceforge.net/foundry/java/

    tony
  13. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Jack wrote:

    I wanted to look at some open sources sites.
    I am unable to get to sourcesurge.net

    ---------

    I'm pretty sure Tony meant, sourceforge.net, (which is also aliased as sf.net for those of us who don't like to type a lot [smile] ).

    God bless,
    -Toby Reyelts
  14. What and when is .NET?[ Go to top ]

    Someone said "I am still not clear what .NET is". Someone else said "when will it ship? maybe 2002?" This is an attempt to provide information only (not an advertisement).

    .NET is a new Microsoft "brand". It will become the catch-all term for almost everything Microsoft sells, including servers, office, windows, online services, &c.

    From the developer perspective, .NET is 3 things:

    1. developer tools

        a. the .NET SDK, which is downloadable from msdn. Runs only on MS Windows. "Free" (if you have Windows). The SDK includes the common-language runtime, featuring garbage collection, JIT compilation, dynamic class loading, reflection, library versioning, software licensing, and other modern capabilities. The SDK also includes tools like: compilers for VB7, C++, JavaScript, and C#; a debugger; dis-assembler; code signer; cert manager; utilities, etc etc. And the SDK includes a broad multi-language class library ("the .NET Framework") for handling a variety of programming tasks (data access, XML, Web services, I/O, system-level things (event log, timers, perfmon), transactions, remoting, threading, text handling, etc etc).

        (note the .NET SDK will be deployable, it is not "developer only" like the J2EE SDK)

        b. VisualStudio.NET, the IDE. Not free. Build .NET apps, windows forms apps, web services, XML Schema, etc etc.


    2. servers ("the .NET Enterprise Servers"), including SQL Server and Biztalk Server. These run only on Windows platforms. Cost: varies. tops out at $20-$25k/cpu.

        a. SQL can deliver XML docs from any SQL query. No MS client required for this, any HTTP client can send a query and get an XML doc. This has been available for ~24 months. SQL will be extended to allow sprocs be callable as XML Web Services (as IBM will do with db2, maybe also oracle? ).

        b. Biztalk is a message broker, can use to orchestrate business processes, including internal and external web services.


    3. online Web services ("Hailstorm")

        Passport & "MyServices" - these are online XML web services that you can include into applications. You access them via SOAP. Passport, for example, promises simpler authentication for apps (re-use, but at a service level). The cost is that MS owns the customer database. You can also access these from non-windows platforms. They're just web services.


    ----
    When will .NET ship?

    For the dev tools, both .NET SDK and VS.NET IDE have been in beta for the past 18 months (since July 2000). They will release to market as officially supported products before the end of this year. You will be able to run .NET programs on Windows XP, W2000. Maybe NT4 (don't know). Certainly not on Linux or Solaris.

    For the services - these are available now.

    For the servers - available now, more web services capabilities coming over time.

  15. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    The Gartner Group has said the MS will get about 30% of the web development market. Mostly this will come from MS shops and companies that use entry-level developers to keep cost down. Companies that are currently using J2EE for projects are not likely to switch. I know the company that I work for likes the flexiblity in J2EE products. We aren't locked into just one company for products and we have many companies to chose from when selecting a product. Furthermore, Java has matured. It took 5 years to get this far. MS will get there market share, but they're not going to bowl over Java.
  16. the 1st question to ask is:
    Will .NET will be released in 2002????
  17. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Hey I admire MS for its guts!!!! but hate them for they are and have been doing.

    Ya sure if they make everything free to download and make it opensource, and really cross platform i will go ahead and evaluate .net. I have just started use J2EE tech to the fullest in the last 6 months....

    bhushan.
  18. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Just my two cents, but any survey results will be skewed towards the people that answer the survey. I have never gone to the componentsource site, i have gone to other sites for Java components but not that one, they seem to have more Microsoft specific components than Java, so that would leave me to believe that there audience is mostly Microsoft developers.

    Also, since I could not find the survey on their site, I can not be sure of the questions, but you have to ask yourself, if the survey was at the end of an article that was titled "Microsoft release .NET technologies", would a lot of Java Developers read the article, thus be asked the questions on the survey?

    Although, this is how the news media works, it is very dishearting, and I guess the thing that really *&#$&*# me off is the fact that Microsoft could have just entered the application server market, and tried to make a kick ass appserver that ran on NT and 2000, this way the world of the web would be clear cut, you use Java, J2EE and you pick the best app server that you can find. BUT NO, they have to the typical Microsoft thing and claim supreme ruler of the world and all the little Microsoft wantabe's follow and hope they can live off of the Microsoft droppings ... hmmmm do I sound bitter?

    Rich
  19. Well I did a simple test, went to monster.com and searched for jobs with the word Java in them. I got more then a 1,000 offerings. Did the same with .NET got around 150 Did the same with Visual Basic got around 500.
    I guess this is one way to show where the market is going.
  20. monster.com search and trends[ Go to top ]

    how did you do the monster search?
    I tried Java and got "over 1000 matches".
    I tried VB and got "over 1000".
    I tried ".NET" and got "over 1000".
    It seems non-alphanumeric characters are not used in the search, so .NET gets trimmed to "NET".
    how can we search monster.com for .NET ??

  21. monster.com search and trends[ Go to top ]

    Mmmhhh, I saw the same thing. Are you sure guys you're not performing sub-queries? More than 1000 offers for each VB and Java.


    Cheers
  22. monster.com search and trends[ Go to top ]

    Hmm, I got over 1000 for Java, 618 for Visual Basic, and 126 for .NET. I did select all states but the "Computer, Software" category. Monster returned ".NET" on the search results page, so I don't think it's dropping the dot.

    I clicked the search link on the main page, which took me to:
    http://jobsearch.monster.com
    I wonder what the difference is?


    By the way, on Headhunter.net:
     1648 Java
      849 Visual Basic
       47 .NET
  23. At Monster.com, I did a search on .Net (computers, software) and got 126 jobs. Visual Basic jobs found 604 and Java had more than 1000. I guess this can be the new Monster.com Index for checking market trends.
  24. <quote>
    Posted by shay shmelzer 2001-10-24 15:02:58.0.
    Well I did a simple test, went to monster.com and searched for jobs with the word Java in them. I got more then a 1,000 offerings. Did the same with .NET got around 150 Did the same with Visual Basic got around 500.
    I guess this is one way to show where the market is going.
    </quote>

    Well, this proves nothing but tell us that Java programmers cannot meet the demand of the corporate world.

    C'mon guys. Let us be realistic. Microsoft has the monopoly because people knows the limitations of Microsoft technologies. It's like someone falling in love with a person and learning to live with that person despite that person's shortcomings. But they do live well together.

    But we Java developers have the best. That's why we cannot cope to live with someone lesser. We are more demanding. A simple shortcoming will probably get our ire. Now that's the problem.
  25. How does "not using EJB" equate to "taking down Java"?

    I'm sure there are, and will continue to be, plenty of companies involved in 100% Java development that may, in fact, never use EJB, but that is hardly equivalent to their abandoning Java, or embracing .NET, now is it?

  26. Will .Net take down Java in 2002?[ Go to top ]

    Belive in .NOW technology than .NET and .NOW is nothing but J2EE which is well proven n well ahead than .net
    -By Sachin Mali.