|
Sponsored Links
Resources
Enterprise Java
Research Library
Get Java white papers, product information, case studies and webcasts
|
News
News
News
|
Messages: 90
Messages: 90
Messages: 90
Printer friendly
Printer friendly
Printer friendly
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
XML
XML
XML
|
 |
A Realistic Look at Eclipse
It's time to take a long, hard, realistic look at Eclipse. As alternative IDEs grows in popularity and function, it's relevant to explore the effects of this environment on the Eclipse ecosystem, and how best to face the challenges posed by Sun/NetBeans and others.
Ok - so Eclipse doesn't have the same sexy, out-of-the-box appeal that some other IDEs deliver. Environments like NetBeans look great, have smooth functionality (for the most part), and are wrapped in a pretty package. If we look only at pink and lace, NetBeans beats Eclipse. But the question is, does NetBeans have the power and steam behind it to take it to the next level of adoption, and more importantly, should Eclipse follow Sun's footsteps by focusing on end user out-of-the-box experience instead of the less glamorous platform or ingredients inside? The short answer is, “HELL” no.
The long answer is rooted in the need to resist the temptations to take this competition personally and to slide into a tit-for-tat feature war that will ultimately cannibalize the true power behind Eclipse; its ecosystem. After all, Eclipse is much more than a single application or a free IDE. It's the standard for open source toolkits, and the one already adopted by enterprises of all sizes. The recognition by these companies that the current and potential ingredients that make up Eclipse are superior to any single application (including Netbeans) is already well demonstrated. Eclipse is quickly becoming the base ingredient for all but a small set of development environments, and is not (nor is it intended at this point) to be a complete end product. It's designed to be a plugin-friendly, customizable, and functional solution for tools and Rich Client Applications; the key reason for adoption by the Enterprise.
The brainpower (139 independent members of the Eclipse Foundation and counting) behind Eclipse is overwhelming, and the Eclipse add-in community seems to grow on a daily bases. This collective “power of the many”, when viewed as an ecosystem, gives Eclipse a significant advantage over any one organization or product. When most companies look at their development choices, they are naturally drawn towards the product with the greatest, value, flexibility, efficiency, and evolutionary potential. Eclipse developers all over the world are making useful and advanced tools that further enrich the options available to their fellow developers. Current estimates show Eclipse at over 50 million downloads, and the availability of over 1200 commercial plugins. No other platform can come close to such claim.
Despite all of this potential and apparent positioning as the environment of choice, why are competitive IDEs able to survive against Eclipse? Part of it has been superior marketing campaigns by companies like Sun and the NetBeans project. Their evangelists have simply done a fabulous job of redefining the rules of competition, and Eclipse has in my opinion failed to promote the combined power of the platform and the ecosystem. Evans Data's latest survey, for example, concluded that Eclipse trails other IDEs in feature sets. Developers rated it last when it comes to features, which is a preposterous statement when taking into consideration more than 1000 feature extensions for the Platform. Trends in searches, blogging, and virtual buzz show that Eclipse has maintained only a flatline market share over the past 12 months (though a sizable increase is seen in traffic for Eclipse 3.2). Surprisingly, IDEs like NetBeans have also been fairly flat, showing only slight growth.* Recent analyst estimates state that half of all IT houses** and two-thirds of Java shops*** utilize Eclipse-based tools. This means Eclipse enjoys a huge, apparently loyal market presence, but the Eclipse Foundation, hindered in my opinion by the “not invented here” mindset, has not adequately taken steps to assert themselves as the clear leader in the marketplace. Eclipse plus a handful of plugins is unequaled in the tools market. This recipe can be repeated indefinitely in any tools specialization and if done properly will change the competitive picture once and for all. But, this may require a new way of thinking.
Eclipse will need to refocus their approach back to the roots of Eclipse; providing the quality platform for others to build upon. To accomplish this, it seems that the Foundation will need to explore embracing the plugins offered by the community to enrich the functionality of Eclipse at the core, in addition to the flexibility of Eclipse as a tool you can plug your favorite features into. Eclipse has provided the platform for construction, and many outstanding tools have been built on its foundation. If the collective thought behind the innovations in the ecosystem is reintegrated in to the base Eclipse platform, it would increase functionality, feature sets, and user experiences several fold. The more advanced the platform, the more likely it is that the tools created on top of it will be even more innovative, creating cyclical evolutionary advances.
But how could this be accomplished? An option may be allowing users to register their tested and proved plugin as part of the Callisto installer. This method of delivery (introduced with Eclipse 3.2, which is slated for GA release on June 30) is both efficient and controllable, and would allow the community the immediate benefit from new features. In this model, EPIC (Eclipse Plug-In Central at http://www.eclipseplugincentral.com – a centralized resource for Eclipse plugins recently placed under the management of the Eclipse Foundation) may emerge as a valuable tool to qualify plugins and features prior to inclusion. In addition, this approach would allow the Eclipse Foundation to proactively recognize and promote its own members – something it should inherently be pursuing.
Promoting this type of infrastructure will also require rekindling the meritocracy of open source. As an example, several top-level Eclipse features lack the same quality standards as the platform SDK, but continue to be promoted as the premiere tools despite superior comparable community add-in plugins or extensions. In order to satisfy customer demands both in commercial extensions and the extensible tools platforms, Eclipse will likely need to begin exploring the external tools available (even in competitive platforms) to enrich end user experience and to demote dangerous “must be invented here” ideologies that are at the heart of mediocrity.
Playing devil's advocate against the community-input-is-better concept, entities like NetBeans can/do/will protest “all of our IDE is free, the extended Eclipse community isn't always.” This is true (though Eclipse itself is always free). But this assumes that free tools are adequate for everyone. Factoring in Enterprise needs for support, a larger community provides a greater choice for companies and sets the rules for healthy competition without having to give up open standards or an arm and leg for them. If you want to get down and dirty, the large Eclipse community has your back as opposed to a single entity.
To coin a perhaps overused cliché; it now takes a village to gain an advantage in the world of development tools. When one looks at the balance sheet of companies such as Sun (in both dollars and in talent resource) compared to the “village” of Eclipse, there is no competition. If some of the changes mentioned above were to be implemented, I believe we'd see a growth in the Eclipse ecosystem beyond anything we have imagined, and beyond what any other IDE is currently capable of offering.
This blog entry is no way an attack against the EMO. The foundation has done a good job of in marshaling resources and spreading the word about Eclipse. However, new plateaus require sincere introspection, and in some cases asking if the emperor indeed has any clothing.
*Google Trends and Technorati keyword/tag histories
**Forrester Analysts, July '05
***Interarbor Solutions Analysts, June '06
|
Threaded replies
| · |
I do
by
h s
on Wed Jun 28 18:40:00 EDT 2006
|
|
|
Message #212402
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
A couple years ago, everyone said the battle in browser war was over: Microsoft IE won. But now, Netscape/Firefox comes back strong (I use Firefox myself).
It is the same with Netbeans/Eclipse war. Recently, I tried both of them BRIEFLY. I would say, Netbeans is better.
I do not like "Eclipse" which means a smaller object (the moon) blocks the Sun temporarily. After that short period, the Sun is the Sun. I guess they chose the name against Sun, but in the end, the name may be against themselves.
I hope both of them thrive well. The market is big enough for more than one IDE.
Wei Jiang
Perfecting Java EE!
|
|
|
Message #212403
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
NetBeans? Who on earth uses NetBeans? If there's any competition, it's between Eclipse and IntelliJ.
|
|
|
Message #212405
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Actually I have exactly the same opinion. I've blogged recently this very topic here:
http://jroller.com/page/baa?entry=netbeans_not_yet_thought
While NetBeans have done great work in area of overall integration and, as NetBeans evengelists used to say: out-of-the-box experience, NetBeans still doesn't catch up in
core areas like editor, debugger, VCS/Team, junit even ANT integration. It's nice to have all that bells and whistles, but frankly how often do You use all that wizards? Who does use it in real life, huge, legacy projects? They are damn complicated and no wizards provided by WTP, NetBeans, IDEA nor JDveloper can help much... What can help here is Your day to day productivity - quality editor, core tools integration (ant, junit, debugger, VCS). Unfortunatelly for the time being NetBeans is far, far behind Eclipse...
But things are changing, hope NB 6.0 will catch-up:
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jlahoda?catname=%2FNetBeans
Artur
|
|
|
Message #212410
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Easy things easier
I think that Sun/NetBeans has taken a page of our Microsoft's book. "Make easy things easier". Most newcomers to Java start with something very basic - Swing. They want to create some little program with buttons and text fields. Programming GUI today with a drag-and-drop GUI editor is like living in the stone age. I can't believe that Eclipse has so many features and plug-ins by no Swing editor.
|
|
|
Message #212411
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
Sorry, "Programming GUI today with a drag-and-drop GUI editor is like living in the stone age" should be "Programming GUI today without a drag-and-drop GUI editor is like living in the stone age"
|
|
|
Message #212412
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Article was good and bad. Everyone seems to miss what Eclipse is: it is a platform. It is not a Java IDE. The JDT is the Java Development Toolkit plugin for Eclipse. You could write your own Java IDE on top of Eclipse that has nothing to do with the JDT if you wanted.
Netbeans is *only* a Java IDE. If your not working in Java you shouldn't use NetBeans. This is why, as the article stated: 2/3 of java shops and 1/2 non-java shops use Eclipse.
The "don't invent here" is a Sun trademark, not Eclipse. You can invent with Eclipse all you want except on the parts run by the Eclipse team. For those, like all open source projects, you have to go through people with submit rights to submit your change.
|
|
|
Message #212414
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
NetBeans? Who on earth uses NetBeans? If there's any competition, it's between Eclipse and IntelliJ.
I know quite a few people that use NetBeans and are very content with it (and they don't work for SUN). It's like the IE vs Firefox argument, what seems a very small group today, can be pretty big (again) tomorrow. For the record, I use Eclipse.
|
|
|
Message #212415
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Article was good and bad. Everyone seems to miss what Eclipse is: it is a platform. It is not a Java IDE. The JDT is the Java Development Toolkit plugin for Eclipse. You could write your own Java IDE on top of Eclipse that has nothing to do with the JDT if you wanted.
NetBeans is a platform too. Isn't it?
We just compare IDE (Java) built on top of Eclipse Platform (JDT) vs. NetBeans Platform (NetBeans IDE).
BTW. I'm not a NetBeans developer, but every single part of NetBeans is module (plugin in the eclipse nomenclature).
Artur
|
|
|
Message #212417
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
I think that Sun/NetBeans has taken a page of our Microsoft's book. "Make easy things easier". Most newcomers to Java start with something very basic - Swing. They want to create some little program with buttons and text fields. Programming GUI today with a drag-and-drop GUI editor is like living in the stone age. I can't believe that Eclipse has so many features and plug-ins by no Swing editor.
Swing? Who on earth uses Swing? If there's any competition, it's between SWT and ...
Sorry, couldn't resist.
______________
George Coller
DevilElephant
|
|
|
Message #212419
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
Yes, there is a GUI editor project. The last time that I downloaded Elipse, it's still not in there. NetBeans had a drag-and-drop GUI editor going back to at least version 3, which came out around 2002.
All of the advanced stuff is great, but to new developers Netbeans is more friendly than Elipse.
|
|
|
Message #212420
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Question for Mark Nuttall
mark, this is probably not the best place for asking this, but I am facing an issue you had raised in "JSF for nonbelievers: Clearing the FUD about JSF" where you ask "Anyone using JSF with Tiles? Or something similar? Tiles is blocking my call to an action (works fine with tiles removed)."
I was wondering if you found a solution to this and could point me in the right direction.
|
|
|
Message #212422
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Is there an issue here?
The author has some interesting points but is there any issue here? Is the Eclipse platform being challenged at all? All I'm seeing is more and more companies using it as the basis for their own IDE or tools. For instance Adobe is now using it as their IDE for ActionScript and Flex. Sure there are other platforms but do any of them have any of the penetration that Eclipse now enjoys?
I think MyEclipse gathers the right plug-ins for a basic J2EE environment. I still prefer IntelliJ on Windows as my all time favorite but I never get to use it on the job (on OS X it just doesn't feel as snappy). It is a superior J2EE IDE (IMHO) but can it compete with all the other languages and plug-ins available for Eclipse? Not by a long shot.
Should Eclipse have a team dedicated to making it look and respond better? I disagree with the author and say yes. The difference between the Eclipse that WSAD sits on and the current stand alone is enormous as far as look and feel go. I'd hate to see it stagnate. Especially, I'd like to see some more work done on Eclipse and OS X.
I'm sure NetBeans is nifty for J2EE - can I get a ruby editor with that? How about a choice of several UML modelers? JavaScript plug-in?
Sun should do more to promote the modularity of NetBeans to get more people excited about writing plug-ins. This was the genius of Eclipse - that it was pushed into open-source as the "people's platform". Who wouldn't write an Eclipse plug in first for their technology?
______________
George Coller
DevilElephant
|
|
|
Message #212423
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
NetBeans? Who on earth uses NetBeans? If there's any competition, it's between Eclipse and IntelliJ.
I know quite a few people that use NetBeans and are very content with it (and they don't work for SUN). It's like the IE vs Firefox argument, what seems a very small group today, can be pretty big (again) tomorrow. For the record, I use Eclipse.
Have you looked at the latest version of Netbeans 5.5 preview with the enterprise plugin? It's head and shoulders above eclipse and even myeclipseide. Eclipse is relatively attractive when you're using Windows, but the attraction drops dramatically with various SWT related issues when using a OS X, and/or any other platform.
IntelliJ, IMO, beats all IDEs hands down, but Netbeans would be my next option. Honestly, I'll take JBuilder before Eclipse, for it's consistent interface on various platforms.
Ilya
|
|
|
Message #212424
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
Yes, there is a GUI editor project. The last time that I downloaded Elipse, it's still not in there. NetBeans had a drag-and-drop GUI editor going back to at least version 3, which came out around 2002.
All of the advanced stuff is great, but to new developers Netbeans is more friendly than Elipse.
myeclipse integrated Netbeans Matisse Swing designer into Eclipse (though it's not free), it beats any other Swing designer out there. It still does not work on OS X, so I can't even test it. I can't understand why SWT folks are so behind on fixing various OS X bugs, with sworms of developers moving to OS X, I'd think that would be a number one priority.
Ilya
|
|
|
Message #212428
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
"Netbeans is *only* a Java IDE."
Well... This statement is totally wrong. NetBeans was a platform even before Eclipse was an idea in someones head.
Please go to http://platform.netbeans.org for more info.
|
|
|
Message #212430
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I would like to know your and the community's opinion on Oracle JDeveloper as an IDE. My first impression of WSAD now named RAD v6.0 I believe was not favorable. The IDE was painfully slow and to get the optimal performance out of it, I was told to go and download 1.65 GB of updates!!! Creating web services was daunting at best and that was when the IDE was NOT crashing. Honestly, everytime I manage to click File -> Exit the IDE would crash leaving huge core dumps on my hard drive. If that is what the author of this thread claims to be Eclipse being used as platform for IDEs then Eclipse is in really bad shape. That said, I have used Netbeans and it is quite simple and easy to use. But my favorite so far is Oracle JDeveloper which amazingly not a lot of people speak of. Why is that? Have you guys used it?
|
|
|
Message #212431
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I don't think you can blame the Eclipse platform for any issues with WSAD. I've noted in other posts that there is a reason it's not called WHAPPY. (I'll have to think of a new joke for RAD - hmm degRADe? no that's lame)
You need to try out plain Eclipse or better MyEclipse (if you are a J2EE developer) to get a view of the platform's potential.
I have no opinion of Oracle's IDE simply because it isn't on my radar. Maybe because it is an attractive option mostly to shops who've invested in the whole Oracle technology stack? I'd rather hear from you why Oracle JDeveloper is so great?
______________
George Coller
DevilElephant
|
|
|
Message #212434
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
JDeveloper is very good. Eclipse is attractive because is open however I dislike SWT. You can find anything you need in JDeveloper. From class diagrams to TopLink (EJB3) mapper. Support for JSF (ADF faces). OC4J as server runtime is very fast for development.
For doing real job use JDeveloper.
|
|
|
Message #212436
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Eclipse has a big problem, and it is definitely a problem with "marketing". I don't mean "marketing" in the sense of having lots of banner ads, effective "search engine optimisation" and making sure that all the cool dev journals are writing articles about your latest tools, or having a rocking conference with live web casts and mutliple, real-time blogger coverage and BoF fetes and "Booth Girls".
Eclipse suffers from the "were open source so we must be better" syndrome. I think there's a lot of unwillingness to "make it easy" because (1) Eclipse has devolved into design by committee over-architecture (it's the UN for IDEs) (2) making things "easy" is looked down upon in the Eclipse community ("pink and lace", "pretty package", "The short answer is, “HELL” no", etc.).
To be frank, the install for IntelliJ and Netbeans are both very smooth. Both have plugins. Both are getting better. With a new standard plug-in API (JSR 198), it's even possible that Netbeans will be able to benefit from that "Eclipse Ecosystem".
From where I sit, looking down on one's customers and having too many cooks watching the pot generally means "bad product" and "dead end". And last I checked, there's not much of a price gap between netbeans and eclipse.
And for the record, I happily get my employer to lay down $500 for IntelliJ (though I occaisionally switch out to Eclipse or NetBeans and enjoy using vi or notepad when the time is right).
|
|
|
Message #212442
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Question for Mark Nuttall
I gave up on Tiles at the time and have not revisited it.
I suggest getting the Exadel plugin. It is pretty good.
|
|
|
Message #212443
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I would like to know your and the community's opinion on Oracle JDeveloper as an IDE. My first impression of WSAD now named RAD v6.0 I believe was not favorable. The IDE was painfully slow and to get the optimal performance out of it, I was told to go and download 1.65 GB of updates!!! Creating web services was daunting at best and that was when the IDE was NOT crashing. Honestly, everytime I manage to click File -> Exit the IDE would crash leaving huge core dumps on my hard drive. If that is what the author of this thread claims to be Eclipse being used as platform for IDEs then Eclipse is in really bad shape. That said, I have used Netbeans and it is quite simple and easy to use. But my favorite so far is Oracle JDeveloper which amazingly not a lot of people speak of. Why is that? Have you guys used it?
I think JDeveloper is by far one of the best for JEE development. Probably even beats the new Netbeans features. My only pick with it, is it's editor, which is not as good as IntelliJ's (but who is:-), and the interface is not as cleanly presentable as Netbeans, IMO. They also have a tendency to bundle it with Oracle specific tools, technologies, which is great when developing with Oracle db and app server. I know you can use it for most technologies out there, just that there is that setup time, that I don't think people are willing to take for some reason. They are also not as fast to embrace open source projects, like Spring, etc... But then again, I used it a few times about a year ago, it might be way better now, though it was great before.
I think Eclipse rates way at the bottom of other IDEs out there, like IDEA, Netbeans, and JDeveloper.
I also don't #$@$ing understand the argument of, Eclipse is a platform, not specific for Java. Well, I develop in java today, and I'd like the best of the best IDE for java, that will help me be more productive. I don't want some half breed development environment that doesn't concentrate on core java productivity and makes me less productive. If I'm programming in Perl tomorrow, I'll use Komodo, C# -> .NET Studio, etc... Yes, in a perfect world, you'd have a similar env, where you're used to shortcuts, etc... for each language, but by embracing this long time unrealized dream, eclipse is begining to fall behind in all respects. Oh, but have you seen the Perl plugin. Yes, used it, it's crap compared to Komodo. Oh, but have you seen the RoR plugin, yes, it's crap compared to TextMate on OS X and it's ruby plugins. Oh, but, oh but, etc...
Ilya
|
|
|
Message #212444
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Question for Mark Nuttall
thanks! Are you talking about a particular plugin in exadel studio or exadel in general?
|
|
|
Message #212447
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Answer for Nitin Chander
thanks! Are you talking about a particular plugin in exadel studio or exadel in general?
Hello Nitin!
I do not think this is the best place to answer that question, but if you asking about Tiles & JSF, please consider use of Facelets & JSF.
If you have more questions, please ask directly me ishabalov@exadel.com
Igor Shabalov,
Exadel Inc.
|
|
|
Message #212448
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Eclipse
I believe that the name came from IBM wanting to eclipse MS' Visual Studio rather than Sun.
|
|
|
Message #212453
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
I do
I am on earth, and I do.
Actually I've given Eclipse a try numerous times, and always went back RUNNING to NB.
|
|
|
Message #212459
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
I think that Sun/NetBeans has taken a page of our Microsoft's book. "Make easy things easier".
Quite the contrary. I use NetBeans because it makes things that are pretty fiddly with Eclipse very easy (such as J2EE development). I like to experiment. Recently I downloaded Eclipse and tried at least two different plug-ins to try and get a simple JDO + J2EE project I had been working with in NetBeans up and running. After half a day, I gave up. This was trivial in NetBeans, as all the tools I was using had Ant support that could be easily included in the NetBeans build.
NetBeans is increasing in popularity because it makes things that Eclipse makes difficult, easy.
|
|
|
Message #212463
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Eclipse plugin management is propesterous
Eclipse!
Stage one: Wow. This is the future!
Stage two: Frustrated. It's gonna get better.
Stage three: Denial. I can do that.
Stage four: Reality. Man!
Stage five: Gosh, I hate this!
Stage six: Loathesome puke.
Stage seven: Ignorance is perfect bliss. What is eclipse?
I DO NOT WANT TO DELETE FOLDERS. I WANT TO 'Uninstall Plugin'.
I love IntelliJ. If they could redefine their plugin API focus. But I still love it.
Eclipsed.
One day I will live in a perfect world.
|
|
|
Message #212464
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
JDeveloper
Another vote for JDeveloper here (10.1.3). But I'm not going to do anyone's homework for them. Someone in your company should be doing that for you :) If certain tools are not on you radar, then I suggest that you more thoroughly evaluate existing tools without prejudice.
|
|
|
Message #212467
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Why switch?
I'm using WSAD based on Eclipse on a medium sized 3 tier web project and I have to say it's so much better than anything I've used before, just based on the extensive search, navigation, and refactoring ability. Can someone give me a compelling reason why I would want to switch to NetBeans?
Thanks,
Thomas
"A good workman is known by his tools. (Proverb)
A fool with a tool is just a fool. (Another proverb)
Proverbs are overrated. (Anonymous) "
|
|
|
Message #212470
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Article was good and bad. Everyone seems to miss what Eclipse is: it is a platform. It is not a Java IDE. The JDT is the Java Development Toolkit plugin for Eclipse. You could write your own Java IDE on top of Eclipse that has nothing to do with the JDT if you wanted.
NetBeans is a platform too. Isn't it?
We just compare IDE (Java) built on top of Eclipse Platform (JDT) vs. NetBeans Platform (NetBeans IDE).
BTW. I'm not a NetBeans developer, but every single part of NetBeans is module (plugin in the eclipse nomenclature).
Artur
Just for giggles.. suppose IntelliJ IDEA was let loose as an open source product. Free, OpenSource and the best available....
Then, I think IDEA will have no match - be it Eclipse / Netbeans combined..
It is just the cost that makes people turn away from IDEA without even experiencing it..
Anoop
|
|
|
Message #212471
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
NetBeans? Who on earth uses NetBeans? If there's any competition, it's between Eclipse and IntelliJ.
I know quite a few people that use NetBeans and are very content with it (and they don't work for SUN). It's like the IE vs Firefox argument, what seems a very small group today, can be pretty big (again) tomorrow. For the record, I use Eclipse.
(Sorry for the repost - quoted the wrong posts)...
Just for giggles.. suppose IntelliJ IDEA was let loose as an open source product. Free, OpenSource and the best available....
Then, I think IDEA will have no match - be it Eclipse / Netbeans combined..
It is just the cost that makes people turn away from IDEA without even experiencing it..
Anoop
|
|
|
Message #212472
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I would like to know your and the community's opinion on Oracle JDeveloper as an IDE. My first impression of WSAD now named RAD v6.0 I believe was not favorable. The IDE was painfully slow and to get the optimal performance out of it, I was told to go and download 1.65 GB of updates!!! Creating web services was daunting at best and that was when the IDE was NOT crashing. Honestly, everytime I manage to click File -> Exit the IDE would crash leaving huge core dumps on my hard drive. If that is what the author of this thread claims to be Eclipse being used as platform for IDEs then Eclipse is in really bad shape. That said, I have used Netbeans and it is quite simple and easy to use. But my favorite so far is Oracle JDeveloper which amazingly not a lot of people speak of. Why is that? Have you guys used it?
I think JDeveloper is by far one of the best for JEE development. Probably even beats the new Netbeans features. My only pick with it, is it's editor, which is not as good as IntelliJ's (but who is:-), and the interface is not as cleanly presentable as Netbeans, IMO. They also have a tendency to bundle it with Oracle specific tools, technologies, which is great when developing with Oracle db and app server. I know you can use it for most technologies out there, just that there is that setup time, that I don't think people are willing to take for some reason. They are also not as fast to embrace open source projects, like Spring, etc... But then again, I used it a few times about a year ago, it might be way better now, though it was great before.
I think Eclipse rates way at the bottom of other IDEs out there, like IDEA, Netbeans, and JDeveloper.
I also don't #$@$ing understand the argument of, Eclipse is a platform, not specific for Java. Well, I develop in java today, and I'd like the best of the best IDE for java, that will help me be more productive. I don't want some half breed development environment that doesn't concentrate on core java productivity and makes me less productive. If I'm programming in Perl tomorrow, I'll use Komodo, C# -> .NET Studio, etc... Yes, in a perfect world, you'd have a similar env, where you're used to shortcuts, etc... for each language, but by embracing this long time unrealized dream, eclipse is begining to fall behind in all respects. Oh, but have you seen the Perl plugin. Yes, used it, it's crap compared to Komodo. Oh, but have you seen the RoR plugin, yes, it's crap compared to TextMate on OS X and it's ruby plugins. Oh, but, oh but, etc...
Ilya
+1
Nice Post - very apt.
|
|
|
Message #212474
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
I use NetBeans 5.0 for J2ME programming. NetBeans Mobility Pack makes J2ME programming, testing and debugging really easy. It integrates seamlessly to Sony Ericsson and Nokia's J2ME SDK. I really wanted to use Eclipse but the EclipseME (Eclipse plugin for J2ME development) for wasn't ready for prime time when I was deciding on which free Java IDE to use.
Now that I have started using NetBeans, I don't see any reason to change and having to learn to use another Java IDE.
Victor
J2ME Daily Devotions
|
|
|
Message #212476
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I think JDeveloper is by far one of the best for JEE development. Probably even beats the new Netbeans features. My only pick with it, is it's editor, which is not as good as IntelliJ's (but who is:-), and the interface is not as cleanly presentable as Netbeans, IMO. They also have a tendency to bundle it with Oracle specific tools, technologies, which is great when developing with Oracle db and app server. I know you can use it for most technologies out there, just that there is that setup time, that I don't think people are willing to take for some reason. They are also not as fast to embrace open source projects, like Spring, etc... But then again, I used it a few times about a year ago, it might be way better now, though it was great before.
I think Eclipse rates way at the bottom of other IDEs out there, like IDEA, Netbeans, and JDeveloper.
I also don't #$@$ing understand the argument of, Eclipse is a platform, not specific for Java. Well, I develop in java today, and I'd like the best of the best IDE for java, that will help me be more productive. I don't want some half breed development environment that doesn't concentrate on core java productivity and makes me less productive. If I'm programming in Perl tomorrow, I'll use Komodo, C# -> .NET Studio, etc... Yes, in a perfect world, you'd have a similar env, where you're used to shortcuts, etc... for each language, but by embracing this long time unrealized dream, eclipse is begining to fall behind in all respects. Oh, but have you seen the Perl plugin. Yes, used it, it's crap compared to Komodo. Oh, but have you seen the RoR plugin, yes, it's crap compared to TextMate on OS X and it's ruby plugins. Oh, but, oh but, etc...
This is fundamental problem. The question is what is Your way of doing Your work. If You really need a wizard for tasks like:
* Adding bean (CMP/BMP/SLSB/SFSB etc) to Your project, wizards for adding/deleting methods etc...
* Adding methods to regular POJO
* Creating standard descriptors (persistence.xml, ejb-jar.xml, verndor specific stuff, web.xml etc.)
* reverse engineering Your database and create entity beans,
* create some basic JSF forms on this basis
* and some more or less useful things
and
* if You can force Your project/codebase (or codebases) to be built/structured exactly Your wizard expects
* if You use Java Coding Standards (in case of Netbeans, note that NetBeans doesn't have customisable code formatter at all) - which is not a case sometimes; especially in real life, huge, legacy projects
Last two weeks I gave a fair try NetBeans 5.5. I enjoyed all that
wizards, whistles and bells etc. But know what? After day or so I had realised that, for me, it is faster to just handwrite those five-liners (especially using good code completion engine like this in Eclipse) than step through wizards (especially if they doesn't have code completion for anything like NetBeans).
Second thing how often do we use all that wizards, except
the most fundamentals like refactoring/find/replace/etc.? How often do You add ejb-jar or other deployment descriptors? How often do You reverseengeeniering Your db and let the IDE creating Your EJBs, if ever, in real life? What if, for some reason, this thing You are cooking with favourite wizard should be specific somehow.
OK. I agree that it looks shiny daisy on screencasts and presentations. But, in real life, we have Our projects done years ago, when even there were no ant around, with very specific hacks, special coding rules, with weird structures, forgotten standards not supported by any magic wizards now, etc.
Is only me who working like this? Do You live in perfect World working on only shiny new projects made by few clicks in Your IDE? I would be very surprised if I've seen someone starting new enterprise application, supposed to be used for next 5-10-20 years, just clicking through IDE...
On the other hand what I use most in my day-to-day work is developing/architecting software - You know (I hate this term:) business logic, doing research, architecting etc. I need superb core tools - like editor, VCS support, debugger, testing environment integration, non intrusive build environment, no forced standards by IDE (like unless You put Your web content here and here, your beans here and here I could not help You at all, You can code but only according to Java coding standards etc.).
I've found Eclipse far, far superior in those areas than NetBeans. I've detailed blog about this - so I would not repeat myself, just take a look:
http://www.jroller.org/page/baa?entry=netbeans_not_yet_thought
Few words about IDEA and JDeveloper.
While I found IDEA interesting I've never liked it. It's not so good in J2EE environments - for example last I checked it supported out-of-the box deployment only on Tomcat and WebLogic. I'm a bit sceptical regarding intelij future. If they will be able
earning any revenues in 2-3 years from IDEA but competition is catching up.
About JDeveloper - I played with JD few times. Frankly I'm impressed (Their 'out-of-the box experience' is better than IDEA, Eclipse NetBeans linked together...). The Only problem I have with this is that's... Oracle product. Working for years with Oracle database and experiencing few revolutions (every year?) regarding their licencing policies I'm little bit sceptical... No offence, but I would not be surprised if in the future Oracle changed their minds and will ask You to pay some little fortune for that tool (They compare JDeveloper with VS Enterprise Architect Edition - $4000?). On the other hand I would not be surprised if they just... stop developing it. It's just Oracle :). Hope not :).
Artur
|
|
|
Message #212483
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
It is just the cost that makes people turn away from IDEA without even experiencing it..
Oh, come on; when I first came across IntelliJ IDEA (version 2.5), I believe they were selling it at merely 300$ (while JBuilder cost well over 10 times as much).
Even now with a price of 500$ (or 250$ if you purchase a personal license (that's what I did)), I think it is really cheap - even compared to (free) eclipse plus a handful of commercial eclipse plugins that you need in order to match IDEA's feature set.
Jens
|
|
|
Message #212487
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
A realistic look at NetBeans ...
This sentence in the article in my opinion says it all:
"Ok - so Eclipse doesn't have the same sexy, out-of-the-box appeal that some other IDEs deliver. Environments like NetBeans look great, have smooth functionality (for the most part), and are wrapped in a pretty package. If we look only at pink and lace, NetBeans beats Eclipse."
Simply nothing but throwing mud at some IDE while praising another by simply turning things upside-down...
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago. If that is sexy then I don't know. The NetBeans people after that much time still don't understand that good code navigation is needed for developers having fun and being productive. NetBeans would go the same way as Borland's Java IDE if it weren't free and if Java weren't from Sun itself.
Yes, NetBeans ahas a GUI editor built into it what eclipse hasn't. Plug Instantiation's GUI editor into eclipse and you have the same if not much beter. Look at the Composition Editor in IBM's earlier VA Java and compare it to Matisse. Then you see how simple it can be to make GUIs.
Cheers, Oliver
|
|
|
Message #212494
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
I would like to know your and the community's opinion on Oracle JDeveloper as an IDE. My first impression of WSAD now named RAD v6.0 I believe was not favorable. The IDE was painfully slow and to get the optimal performance out of it, I was told to go and download 1.65 GB of updates!!! Creating web services was daunting at best and that was when the IDE was NOT crashing. Honestly, everytime I manage to click File -> Exit the IDE would crash leaving huge core dumps on my hard drive. If that is what the author of this thread claims to be Eclipse being used as platform for IDEs then Eclipse is in really bad shape. That said, I have used Netbeans and it is quite simple and easy to use. But my favorite so far is Oracle JDeveloper which amazingly not a lot of people speak of. Why is that? Have you guys used it?
+1
I am also surprised by this silence.Oracle's Jdeveloper 10g is an extremely good swing based tool.
|
|
|
Message #212500
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Please explain
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago.
Can You elaborate ? I have used Netbeans and Eclipse and Jdeveloper for a long time.I have also joinned many forums and dixcusions regarding various IDEs but i have never seen or heard anybody describing an IDE like that.Maybe I missed some tricks?
|
|
|
Message #212502
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
Sorry to say it but as a long time Eclipse user I must say, with Netbeans 5.5 Eclipse is behind the curve. Netbeans used to be worse than Eclipse but the situation has changed, even with Plugins like MyEclipse.
Netbeans 5.5 provides a very good out of the box toolset, integrated db and app server and you basically can kickstart your app development without having to worry about deployment issues, where to get a suitable editor for jsp etc...
Sure there is the WTP and soon Callisto, but compared to Netbeans those toolsets are subpar in the J2EE area.
Once the netbeans team has also the Studio Creator integrated their core IDE experience will be at a level where most Eclipse plugins even the expensive ones will have a hard time to catch up. Sorry to say that so hard, but it is like that.
Where eclipse really shines over the rest is in the core editing areas, the incremental compilation still has to be matched by other ides, but that is it.
The WTP and most commercial plugins are not at the level of JDeveloper or Netbeans in the J2EE arena.
|
|
|
Message #212503
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Please explain
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago.
Can You elaborate ? I have used Netbeans and Eclipse and Jdeveloper for a long time.I have also joinned many forums and dixcusions regarding various IDEs but i have never seen or heard anybody describing an IDE like that.Maybe I missed some tricks?
Interesting point indeed, given the fact that NB 5.5 has XML support you can scaffold an entire jsf application from a db schema using jsf and jpa, you have orm tools based on jpa integrated and a very good visual ui editor being one of the best of its kind, and soon also hopefully with a studio creator plugin you will get real rad capabilities in the webapp area as well.
|
|
|
Message #212504
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Please explain
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago.
Can You elaborate ? I have used Netbeans and Eclipse and Jdeveloper for a long time.I have also joinned many forums and dixcusions regarding various IDEs but i have never seen or heard anybody describing an IDE like that.Maybe I missed some tricks?
Interesting point indeed, given the fact that NB 5.5 has XML support you can scaffold an entire jsf application from a db schema using jsf and jpa, you have orm tools based on jpa integrated and a very good visual ui editor being one of the best of its kind, and soon also hopefully with a studio creator plugin you will get real rad capabilities in the webapp area as well.
Sorry I meant UML roundtripping (XML is supported as well hehehe) also add the refactoring meta language recently released as beta to the mix of Netbeans.
|
|
|
Message #212511
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
No, Eclipse refuse to implement JSR 198
They don't even want to talk about it. They claim the API is a lame duck, but that is besides the point. They just don't want to let anyone into their gridlock on plugin writers. Eclipse is getting to be the bad 900 pound gorilla.
Mats
|
|
|
Message #212512
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
eclipse is irrelevant
see you in 3 months eclipse.
Netbeans are you kidding?
You will see something new very soon.
And it wont be plugin based.
|
|
|
Message #212514
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
oh and when I said that
I actually meant...
see you in three months...
Eclipse, Netbeans IntelliJ, .NET, rails and every other dev platform out there.
I have your asses kicked. We'll talk later.
When you buy my ass.
losers.
|
|
|
Message #212523
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
IMHO, Netbeans will gain even more ground with it's next release, because I believe it is in that release that all the sister products (i.e. Java Studio Creator) will be integrated under the Netbeans flag.
One thing that might seem trivial at first, but that Eclipse does so well is a help system. It's just really complete and really good.
My one complaint with Eclipse is memory usuage, and it's not even really eclipse that is to blame perhaps. Because Eclipse is plugin based, your memory usuage can grow exponentially based on which plugins you have install. I use MyEclipse in my day-to-day work, and 200+Meg memory footprints for Eclipse are common place.
Here are a few articles that I found useful when investigating Netbeans:
Why are you uninstalling NetBeans IDE?
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/malcolmdavis/archive/2006/02/why_are_you_uni_1.html
Sun's Developer Tools Strategy Faq (why there are 4 IDEs based on Netbeans and not just one that does it all):
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gsporar/archive/2006/02/suns_developer.html
I tried out Java Studio Creator and I must say I was impressed. However, I felt that if I used it as my IDE I would be locked into using JSF/JDK 1.4.x/Sun Application Server (no Tomcat support!). It seemed like I would be forever skirting around the IDE's functionality to get my non-JSC supported stuff to work. This might be ignorance talking though, I only tried it briefly. But man, it seemed to me if I were satisfied using the full JSF stack, I would be as productive as an ASP.NET person.
Craig.
|
|
|
Message #212524
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Why is this really relevant
This thread is as relevant as an arugument about American Idol/Pop Idol. As long as the IDE isn't riddled with bugs, an IDE's effectiveness is a matter of taste. I used Visual J++ and Visual Cafe when I started with Java. (If that doesn't date me, nothing will) Then I was a JBuilder user from verions 2. Then I went to JDeveloper. then I went back to JBuilder. Now I two versions of Eclipse. One with Exedel and another with MyEclipse.
They all have their good and bad points. But they are a matter of opinion. The thing that frustrates me is when a client forces me to use a specific IDE. This is Java people! The resultant code is all that matters. After 10 years, I am still a distaster using vi. But others can use it at warp speed. An auto shop doesn't mandate that their mechanics use a specific brand of tools. All they care about is that the job gets done. We should use the same philosophy.
John Murray
Sobetech
|
|
|
Message #212525
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Swing Editor
There are Swing Editor plugins for Eclipse. The problem is that none of them are free. And all of them are very expensive.
|
|
|
Message #212527
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Why is this really relevant - it isn't
This thread is as relevant as an arugument about American Idol/Pop Idol. As long as the IDE isn't riddled with bugs, an IDE's effectiveness is a matter of taste. I used Visual J++ and Visual Cafe when I started with Java. (If that doesn't date me, nothing will) Then I was a JBuilder user from verions 2. Then I went to JDeveloper. then I went back to JBuilder. Now I two versions of Eclipse. One with Exedel and another with MyEclipse.
They all have their good and bad points. But they are a matter of opinion. The thing that frustrates me is when a client forces me to use a specific IDE. This is Java people! The resultant code is all that matters. After 10 years, I am still a distaster using vi. But others can use it at warp speed. An auto shop doesn't mandate that their mechanics use a specific brand of tools. All they care about is that the job gets done. We should use the same philosophy.
John Murray
Sobetech
Yeah, kind of devolved into a popularity contest. I was more interested in the points on where Eclipse could/should go in the future. That's what drew me to the article in the first place. Whether I like Eclipse or not doesn't matter. I use it because many of my clients use it so I'm interested in it.
______________
George Coller
DevilElephant
|
|
|
Message #212531
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
It is just the cost that makes people turn away from IDEA without even experiencing it..
Oh, come on; when I first came across IntelliJ IDEA (version 2.5), I believe they were selling it at merely 300$ (while JBuilder cost well over 10 times as much).
Even now with a price of 500$ (or 250$ if you purchase a personal license (that's what I did)), I think it is really cheap - even compared to (free) eclipse plus a handful of commercial eclipse plugins that you need in order to match IDEA's feature set.
Jens
Yes - what you say is true.. IDEA is worth the $500 and more but once you have used it and realized its usefulness.. But think about someone who thinks the only application in the world is Eclipse.... Just a case in point - in my company I had to get heaven and earth together to get my company to buy 1 (ONE) license of IDEA for me.. and that too after waiting for 3-4 months. Now my colleagues liked it after using the eval... and when they approached the management to buy some more licenses... know what - Eclipse is the standard IDE we use - it is free - nothing can beat it. Except Anoo(me) no one should use IDEA - a legal or an illegal copy...
So that was the end of IDEA... Let's say I leave this company after 1-2 years - no body would even remm that we used IDEA - back to square one..
Anoop
|
|
|
Message #212533
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse
I believe that the name came from IBM wanting to eclipse MS' Visual Studio rather than Sun.
Using both on a daily basis, I would have to say that it does.
|
|
|
Message #212537
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A realistic look at NetBeans ...
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago. If that is sexy then I don't know. The NetBeans people after that much time still don't understand that good code navigation is needed for developers having fun and being productive
That is a true statement 2 years ago. Try out the current version, and get "back to future".
|
|
|
Message #212538
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Swing Editor
There are Swing Editor plugins for Eclipse. The problem is that none of them are free. And all of them are very expensive. See my above post. Yes, you do have to download it cause it is a plugin, but it isn't that difficult. And if you get the Callisto release, it is mucho easier.
|
|
|
Message #212539
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
br>Yes - what you say is true.. IDEA is worth the $500 and more but once you have used it and realized its usefulness..
You are bang on with this, they really need to switch to a model where if you are using the IDE for personal stuff, it's free. If you use it in a corporation, its not.
I mean we would still be using JBuilder at work if it were not for people who were using Eclipse at home and realized that it's just as good but cheaper (well free in this case).
Off topic a bit, but does anyone know why Borland is a supporter of Eclipse? Seems counter-intuitive. Unless they plan to make some pay-for plugins for it akin to MyEclipse?
Craig.
|
|
|
Message #212540
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A realistic look at NetBeans ...
The NetBeans people after that much time still don't understand that good code navigation is needed for developers having fun and being productive.
You should try VS.Net and see how painful it can be.
|
|
|
Message #212543
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: oh and when I said that
When you buy my ass.
losers.
I think your looking for the "gigolo" forum next door.
|
|
|
Message #212552
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Make Eclipse easier -- Free
http://www.easyeclipse.org
Thanks for this link. Eclipse users should really check out their plugin list. Some obscure ones there that are really helpful.
Concerning Netbeans vs. Eclipse, can we please talk about framworks next??? I LOVE RIFE AND IT'S THE BEST. Or how about Java vs. .NET??
Seriously, the best IDE is the one that you're comfortable with and works the best for you. JDeveloper, IDEA, Eclipse and Netbeans are all good (and better than the rest in their own niches). You can spend a month debating the pros and cons and then have to re-evaluate your decision next month when new point releases come out. Personally, virtually everyone I know uses Eclipse except for a few converts to IDEA.
|
|
|
Message #212553
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A Realistic Look at Eclipse
NetBeans? Who on earth uses NetBeans?
I use NetBeans when I work on J2EE projects where I need good support for WEB services and EJB's. Also I have used NetBeans to develop mobile applications and NB is great for that.
|
|
|
Message #212555
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: oh and when I said that
I actually meant...
see you in three months...
Eclipse, Netbeans IntelliJ, .NET, rails and every other dev platform out there.
I have your asses kicked. We'll talk later.
When you buy my ass.
losers.
And with that kind of attitude and rhetoric, I'm sure everyone will be lined up at your door...
Talk is cheap. Show something better or shut up.
|
|
|
Message #212561
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
J2EE and Eclipse?
I've done J2EE development with JBuilder for a few years.
I heard everyone talking about Eclipse.
I tried Eclipse 3.11 with J2EE tools. Tried doing some EJB 2.0 and Web development. Couldnt get anything done. The interface was quite mystical to me. Everything seemed cheap and half way complete. So I went running back to JBuilder.
Maybe I will try Eclipse some day again.
|
|
|
Message #212565
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: J2EE and Eclipse?
If you are still using JBuilder, you need to try NetBeans now... it has improved tremendously in the past 2 years.
I think this entire debate is going nowhere. There are two established camps - Eclipse v. NetBeans. It is not black & white thing. I give Sun a lot of credit for maintaining the NetBeans project when Eclipse was growing so quickly. NetBeans is easy to use and runs much better than it used to.
jLynx JDBC Framework
|
|
|
Message #212568
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Is there an issue here?
RAD 6.0 is not really state-of-the-art Eclipse. It's basically Eclipse 3.0 with a very early, and very buggy, version of WTP. I'd recommend trying Eclipse 3.2 with WTP 1.5, etc. until IBM updates RAD with something better.
I've played around with Netbeans 5.5. It's come a long way from where it used to be, but it still has a long way to go to catch up with Eclipse functionality. If Sun donates some of its tools, especially what is in Creator, it could give Eclipse a serious run for the money in certain areas.
I use Eclipse on a daily basis and am not going to switch anytime soon.
|
|
|
Message #212575
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Vaporware
I actually meant...
see you in three months...
Eclipse, Netbeans IntelliJ, .NET, rails and every other dev platform out there.
I have your asses kicked. We'll talk later.
When you buy my ass.
losers.
Troll or Vaporware salesman. You decide.
|
|
|
Message #212579
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Endorsed Plugins
We are users of the Eclipse platform and are constructing an RCP application.
IHMO, from a commercial perspective, the add-hock nature of the plugin community is a limitation. Plugins come in all ranges of quality and paradigms: aspects that have to be researched and examined in detail before use.
I’d like to propose that the Eclipse consortium itself create a concept of “Endorsed Commercial Plugins.” Such endorsed plugins would be downloaded right from eclipse.org and also the licenses purchased from eclipse.org. Eclipse.org would retain some percentage of the license fee. In return such endorsed plugins would be required to be more consistent, less overlapping with each other, more interoperable, and a whole range of user oriented benefits.
This model of doing business represents more of what software developers need: i.e., consistency and well defined succinct plugins, as opposed to what plugin developer companies are after: maximum converge - features - revenue.
Steve Punte
CEO
Measurement Focused Testing
Test Lens
|
|
|
Message #212584
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Eclipse is Better
Here's a partial list of things Eclipse does that Netbeans does not:
* Javadoc comments:
* Automatically provides a closing "*/" when you type "/**" before a method to start a method javadoc.
* Supports Ctrl-Space type-completion
* Supports {@link #...} type completion in javadocs
* Automagically updates the list of thrown exceptions as they're added.
* Supports "change method signature" in refactoring, not just "change method parameters." Change method signature automatically updates the Javadoc.
* Supports Refactoring popup menu from the Outline View of a class. Netbeans "Members View" does not.
* Allows sorting of class members
* Automatically and visually flags classes with compile time errors in the Package Explorer. NetBeans' Project and Files outline views do not.
* Eclipse's code formatting customization features are FAR more configurable than Netbeans'. I especially like the instance and class variable prefix options since I name my instance variables like m_data. This way the generated getters and setters are setData and getData, not getM_data and setM_data.
* Eclipse's "Surround With" popup menuitem is far more extensive than NetBeans' "Surround with Try-Catch" option.
This is just a partial list. I find Eclipse's "perspective" views very compelling and natural. Nowhere in sight on Netbeans. I also like Eclipse's debugging better.
I'm a Tapestry programmer on many projects, so Spindle is an indispensible tool. To be fair, JSF may find better support in NetBeans.
Cheers,
Bill
|
|
|
Message #212590
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: oh and when I said that
I actually meant...
see you in three months...
Eclipse, Netbeans IntelliJ, .NET, rails and every other dev platform out there.
I have your asses kicked. We'll talk later.
When you buy my ass.
losers.
I don't know if this is worth a reply, probably not. But to give you the benefit of the doubt, were you actually trying to say something? Do you have an english barrier, or are you just trolling?
|
|
|
Message #212605
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
Bill,
You need to know what you are takinga about.
* Javadoc comments - not true, Netbeans can generate JavaDocs
* Automatically provides a closing "*/" when you type "/**" before a method to start a method javadoc. - it auto generates the * when you hit Enter. I don't think that it's too bad to have to type the / when you are done.
* Supports Ctrl-Space type-completion - not true, there is code completion. I am not sure if you Ctrl-space generates it.
I don't really know about the other items. I didn't look into them. I am sure that I could come up with a list of things that NetBeans does that Eclipse doesn't do.
|
|
|
Message #212606
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
Bill,
You need to know what you are taking about.
* Javadoc comments - not true, Netbeans can generate JavaDocs
* Automatically provides a closing "*/" when you type "/**" before a method to start a method javadoc. - it auto generates the * when you hit Enter. I don't think that it's too bad to have to type the / when you are done.
* Supports Ctrl-Space type-completion - not true, there is code completion. I am not sure if you Ctrl-space generates it.
I don't really know about the other items. I didn't look into them. I am sure that I could come up with a list of things that NetBeans does that Eclipse doesn't do.
|
|
|
Message #212607
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
I also like Eclipse's debugging better.
There's one thing what I don't like in Eclipse debugger.
When I watch a collection, in netbeans I can see the elements of the collection and not the internals of that collection.
It is generally harder to find out what's inside in a linkedlist in that way.
Can I do that in eclipse also?
I like the HTTP monitor as well, were I did not find any match in eclipse. (this monitor can show the internal forwards and includes as well as the session and request variables)
Cheers,
Tamas
|
|
|
Message #212665
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
If you compare, compare apples to apples
Evans Data's latest survey, for example, concluded that Eclipse trails other IDEs in feature sets. Developers rated it last when it comes to features, which is a preposterous statement when taking into consideration more than 1000 feature extensions for the Platform
I have to diagree with that statement. If you compare the two as IDEs, that is NetBeans IDE against Eclipse "The IDE" then Evans Data survey is not preposterous. If you want to compare NetBeans IDE against Eclipse "The Platform" then it shouldn't be a fair comparison either for obvious reasons.
|
|
|
Message #212671
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
My POV - Netbeans vs. Eclipse
I've been using eclipse for a few years now, and the basic reason I chose it over IDE's was due to GUI latency (SWT on Windows is snappy). All the other IDE's i've tried had that horrible SWING latency which I couldn't ignore.
I've tried the latest version of Netbeans (5.0), although it looks pretty - the SWING latency is still there which drives me nuts. It's not as snappy as Eclipse.
|
|
|
Message #212679
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
You're right, NetBeans does generate a Javadoc comment from the right-click popup menu of the Members View, but it does not generate @throws clauses for exceptions.
In Eclipse, simply typing "/**" before a method and hitting return not only generates the "*/" at the end of the javadoc, it also generates @param and @throws clauses accurately for the method. This is a significant typing-ease and time-saver when you have 30+ methods to comment in a class.
NetBeans does support Ctrl-Space type completion in code but not inside a Javadoc comment, which was my point; I apologize that that wasn't clear. Eclipse does support that feature -- as well as the {@link...} block, a very nice feature.
|
|
|
Message #212685
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
Tamas, you certainly can get more info in Eclipse by using your own "Detail Formater".
In the variables view in Eclipse debugger perspective right click on the variable that is not being displayed to your liking. Then choose New->Detail Formatter. In the little edit box they give you have a return statement that returns a string, for example:
return my.package.SomeHelperClass.formatMyObject(this);
Things to remember:
* all object references must be fully qualified, there is no "import" statement available
* the variable being viewed can be referenced using "this"
You can view all Detail Formatters by going to Window->Preferences->Java->Debug->Detail Formatters.
It might not be exactly what you want, I mean you probably want a better "graphical" representation rather than string representation, but it's better than nothing.
Craig.
|
|
|
Message #212701
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A realistic look at NetBeans ...
This sentence in the article in my opinion says it all:
"Ok - so Eclipse doesn't have the same sexy, out-of-the-box appeal that some other IDEs deliver. Environments like NetBeans look great, have smooth functionality (for the most part), and are wrapped in a pretty package. If we look only at pink and lace, NetBeans beats Eclipse."
Simply nothing but throwing mud at some IDE while praising another by simply turning things upside-down...
NetBeans is a file browser with a compile button. Nothing more than that. Code navigation at the level of IDEs from 20 years ago. If that is sexy then I don't know. The NetBeans people after that much time still don't understand that good code navigation is needed for developers having fun and being productive. NetBeans would go the same way as Borland's Java IDE if it weren't free and if Java weren't from Sun itself.
Yes, NetBeans ahas a GUI editor built into it what eclipse hasn't. Plug Instantiation's GUI editor into eclipse and you have the same if not much beter. Look at the Composition Editor in IBM's earlier VA Java and compare it to Matisse. Then you see how simple it can be to make GUIs.
Cheers, Oliver
It's funny to hear Eclipse users use the same arguments against NetBeans that Intellij user's use against Eclipse... It really is the editor, code navigation, and refactoring that are the most important features. I have no idea if they're better in Eclipse than Netbeans, but I know that they're pretty simplistic and unusable (to me) in Eclipse compared to Intellij. That, plus the project setup and configuration in Eclipse seems like it was designed by a bunch of rabid, retarded monkeys intentionally trying to make something as painful as possible. Everyone I know who uses Eclipse has to choose between different painful tradeoffs in how they structure their Eclipse projects.
|
|
|
Message #212748
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: A realistic look at NetBeans ...
I've not found any support of Spring framework in NetBeans, but Eclipse has
|
|
|
Message #212756
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Jdeveloper is Good IDE
Hi,
I am working on Jdeveloper from last 1 year and i fould Jdeveloper 10G is really a good IDE and you can create applications of Struts,JSF,Webservices and EJB on few clicks.it's really fast too,so go for it.
I have created few Java files and EJB and then i have created webservices ,i was pretty easy steps.moreover,one advantage is that it has internal OC4J application server , so u can test right there.
Download Jdeveloper link and Demo's
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html
Thanks,
Ali
|
|
|
Message #212797
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Eclipse is Better
Thanks for the post. I'm working with NetBeans but tried several to switch to Eclipse as I'm trying now to write a plug-in for it.
Here's a list of things Netbeans does that Eclipse does not:
* Free XSLT Editor.
* Free and good profiler available as plug-in.
* Better J2ME development.
* Integration with Ant is better.
* It doesn't force you to have your files in your workspace (I know there is a way out of it for Eclipse but it's not standard)
* GUI editor (Matisse)
* Collaboration plug-in.
* Future improvements. The speed that new features and improvements are getting in a release is higher than Eclipse (since 3.0).
I guess that then the choice of an IDE is up to what you're doing.
|
|
|
Message #212879
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
You can't teach a man ...
... you need to make him finding it himself.
I think tools competition is good and the more the better. IDE vendors and open source communities look at each other and try to do better. This improves IDEs and is the opposite of what the browser war between Netscape and IE did for teh quality of web browsers.
However, you cannot go out and teach someone of which IDE to use because this is your personal opinion and reflects your development style.
Make a user trying an IDE is more important that making him read about it. In the end he will make up his mind and choose whatever makes him productive. I recognize IntelliJ being preferred by experienced developers, but maybe too limited for those being kicked off a 4GL world into the coldish waters of Java and J2EE programming.
So let the users decide which IDE they want to use. Ideally make it easy to share a development project between IDEs for people to jointly work in a project with their tool of choice.
Frank
Ps.: I might be biased in my view here because I am working as a ProductManager on Oracle JDeveloper
|
|
|
Message #212912
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: Easy things easier
I think that Sun/NetBeans has taken a page of our Microsoft's book. "Make easy things easier".
Quite the contrary. I use NetBeans because it makes things that are pretty fiddly with Eclipse very easy (such as J2EE development). I like to experiment. Recently I downloaded Eclipse and tried at least two different plug-ins to try and get a simple JDO + J2EE project I had been working with in NetBeans up and running. After half a day, I gave up. This was trivial in NetBeans, as all the tools I was using had Ant support that could be easily included in the NetBeans build.
NetBeans is increasing in popularity because it makes things that Eclipse makes difficult, easy.
I submit that the culprit for the problems with porting your project from NB to Eclipse is not Eclipse, but rather NetBeans. This is due to the propensity of Sun/NB/Studio Creator to muddle up a perfectly plain J2EE project with their proprietary project and deployment descriptors, tag libraries, etc. All of the peripheral JUNK used to establish a J2EE project in NB tends to force a project created in NetBeans to remain in NetBeans.
Try your little experiment of porting your NetBeans project to any other IDE besides Eclipse, and I almost guarantee that you will experience the same issues. At the same time, try to port any project source with a J2EE standard folder layout, J2EE standard deployment descriptors, and J2EE standard tags from another IDE (JBuilder, JDeveloper, Together, IntelliJ, etc.) to Eclipse, and I almost guarantee that your transition will go much more smoothly.
|
|
|
Message #212938
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
stay clear of RAD6
Yes, I used WSAD5/RAD6 at my firm, and I had the same experiences. Especially when deploying to Websphere (IBMs j2ee application server)
I think we spent at least 25% of our time debugging workspace problems and deployment issues to local app servers.
RAD6 is the perfect example what happens when you try to shoe horn everything into an IDE. It had just about every editor you could think of: EJB mapping, CICS/mainframe generation utils, HTML editor, SOAP runtimes.
Of course it took forever to load, and if you are new to java, there's no way this platform flattens the learning curve.
We took a step back and realized that neither RAD6 or websphere was worth staying on, partly due to our web-only projects. We had no EJB or other the J2EE brown spectrum projects.
Tomcat and regular eclipse (no "IBM" plugins) as better and runs so much faster, less moving parts.
While I like many aspects of Eclipse, I think it lacks packaging, for example: why isn't there an included XML and HTML color highlighting editor in by default. Eclipse is some 80+ megs anyway.
|
|
|
Message #212950
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Re: stay clear of RAD6
While I like many aspects of Eclipse, I think it lacks packaging, for example: why isn't there an included XML and HTML color highlighting editor in by default. Eclipse is some 80+ megs anyway.
Well if you take the WTP/Eclipse bundle, it is there by default.
|
|
|
Message #213100
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
No Cross Ide people.
I just wanted to note that all the posts here described the IDE they are using as the best IDE. Nobody stated anything like I was an avid user of Eclipse until I recently tried NetBeans 5.5 and now I will never go back to Eclipse.
I personally did use NetBeans for quite some time. When I switched jobs I was forced to use JDeveloper 10.1.2 (which by the way is the biggest piece of crap I have ever worked with -- note that 10.1.3 is out and is what people are raving about in this forum). Our project has finally moved away from JDeveloper and we now use Eclipse. Comparing the two is really hard because they really do provide, for the most part, the same functionality -- you just have to figure out the key strokes and plugin/modules.
The main thing I miss about NetBeans is the Maven integration. Mevenide for NetBeans is fantastic. My favorite things about Eclipse is the real time compilation of the workspace.
|
|
|
Message #213113
Post reply
Post reply
Post reply
Go to top
Go to top
Go to top
|
|
Is this really a realistic look at Eclipse?
This is really just another argument on the lines "the chasis is better than the car".
I can't buy this argument - nor that of any of the supporters of Eclipse who have replied to this forum.
Is Eclipse a good platform? Possibly. It is certainly a well designed, pluggable platform. Which in my opinion, gives it top marks for being a good platform.
Its a totally different argument that SWT is a can of worms.
But as far as platform design goes, Eclipse is good. NetBeans also has a well-designed pluggable platform. Which makes NetBeans just as good as Eclipse as far as platform design goes.
But that is the "chasis" - not the car.
So on to the next quetion - Is Eclipse a good IDE?
The answer to that is - No.
Eclipse doesn't have good ant integration (despite what many Eclipse supporters claim here). In fact Eclipse has arguably the crappiest ant integration of all the IDEs I have used - excluding perhaps Symantec.
Eclipse doesn't have support for any advanced J2EE function.
All the free Eclipse plugins are crap or very close to it.
Eclipse did not have a good XML editor until very recently. NetBeans had one for years. You can't claim to be a useful J2EE IDE without good XML, XSL, schema and dtd support.
But then, I do not expect a chasis to be better than a car. So personally, I wouldn't use Eclipse as an IDE.
Apparently, there are many in this world who sincerely believe that the Eclipse chasis is better than the NetBeans car.
Good luck to them. :)
|
|
|
| New content on TheServerSide.comNew content on TheServerSide.comNew content on TheServerSide.com |
|
|
Reza Rahman continues to explore the features of the proposed JSR 299, Contexts and Dependency Injection for Java EE (CDI). When approved, it promises to be a key feature of Java EE 6.
(January 21, Article)
Ted Neward is an independent consultant specializing in high-scale enterprise systems, and an authority in Java and .NET technologies. He is the author and co-author of several books, including Effective Enterprise Java. At TheServerSide Java Symposium in March, he will be presenting sessions on pragmatic architecture, ECMAScript and Scala.
(January 15, Article)
Now that Oracle is absorbing Sun Microsystems, there mixed views on what should come of the Java Community Process (JCP). While some say Oracle should become the new steward of Java and keep the JCP much as it was, others argue that it may be time to open-source this widespread language.
(November 24, Article)
Reza Rahman explores the features of the proposed JSR 299, Contexts and Dependency Injection for Java EE (CDI). When approved, it promises to be a key feature of Java EE 6.
(November 2, Article)
SAML is an XML-based standard for exchanging authentication and authorization data between security domains. The single most important problem that SAML was created to solve is the Web browser Single Sign-On problem. Many organizations are debating whether to stay with version 1.1 or move to 2.0. This article makes observations about both options.
(September 28, Article)
Joe Ottinger takes a look at how people learn, and applies it to the practice of programming. He notes that understanding how people learn is an essential part of working in a programming team.
(September 22, Article)
Stephen Maryka gave us an article about the Asynchronous Web and posed a number of questions that get examined like an approach to delivering Asynchronous Web capabilities through extensions to existing Java EE technologies.
(July 14, Article)
JavaServer Faces Flex goal is to provide users capability in creating standard Flex components, part of flexSDK which is open sourced through MPL license, as normal JSF components. This article by Ji Hoon Kim will provide an overview of creating a simple multilingual JSF page consisting of JSF Flex tags.
(June 29, Article)
In this session Jeff explores the key characteristics of successful SOA projects. He covers some of the patterns, and anti-patterns, tool sets, and strategies that he himself learned the hard way. Last, he provides a strategy and blueprint for achieving a high likelihood of success in your SOA project.
(June 23, Tech Talk)
Ari Zilka, CTO of Terracotta, Inc., talks about the new features in Terracotta 3.1, announced during JavaOne and available now.
(June 15, Tech Talk)
In this Tech Talk, Josh Long explores an integration challenge using Spring Integration and walks through the implementation, employing and expanding on the basic patterns of Enterprise Application Integration to tie together components into a function integration solution, and then demonstrates how Spring Integration helps address the integration requirements.
(June 15, Tech Talk)
In this Tech Talk, David Geary teaches you: The basics of Google Web Toolkit; How to implement Ajax-enabled applications in Java; Internationalization; Hooking into the browser history mechanism; Remote procedure calls.
(June 4, Tech Talk)
Jon Kern discusses the best architecture/technical solutions and ensure that they are repeated by all developers. By tackling the architecture up-front in a serial manner, subsequent parallel development will be much more manageable and predictable.
(May 28, Tech Talk)
This keynote describes the frustrations of modern knowledge workers in their quest to actually get some work done, and solutions for how to guard yourself against all those distractions. Neal Ford talks about environments, coding, acceleration, automation, and avoiding repetition as ways to defeat the misguided attempts to sap your ability to produce good work.
(May 26, Tech Talk)
Gil demonstrates how new, aggressive uses of already abundant compute capacity by common applications offer competitive value for application designers.
(May 21, Tech Talk)
Chris Keene introduces WaveMaker as a new way to automate the ability to generate Hibernate classes in order to more quickly bring OR mapping into an application.
(May 19, Article)
Mastering EJB was one of the original and most influential EJB books in the industry. Mastering EJB III now returns with two new expert co-authors, updated for EJB 2.1 and 30% new chapters including security, integration, best practices, open source, and more.
(Book PDF Download)
The Application Server Matrix is a detailed listing of J2EE vendors and their application server products, with information on latest version numbers, J2EE spec support and licensing, pricing, platform support, and links to product downloads and reviews.
(Application Server Comparison Matrix)
|
|
