The Java Backlash

Are all of those blogs about why Java sucks, and all of those articles about which language is best positioned to usurp Java as the next great language starting to get to you? Well, if anything is going to give a Java aficionado an eating disorder, it's their beloved 'Father of Java' telling the world that when it comes to the language he created, "I could hardly care less."

Words of discouragement?

The following is a two minute audio clip of James Gosling talking about Java and the JVM at TSSJS 2011, in which he states: "Most people talk about Java the language, and this may sound odd coming from me, but I could hardly care less." 

James Gosling on What He Cares About: Java vs. the JVM

A transcript of the discussion accompanies the audio clip as well. Give it a good read. You'll probably find that the message isn't one of discouragement.

Oracle's the new owner now. "Father" or not, it's irrelevant now...

I'd say that his comments are more important than ever, especially with this wave of FUD that I think we're seeing with everyone dissing Java and promoting Scala and Groovy and whatever.

The real point here, which doesn't make as much of a grabbing headlines as doesas the quote "I could care less", is James' point that it's the JVM that's the key, not the syntax that generates they bytecode. And since Scala and Groovy and the rest are all just destined for the same place, the bottom line isn't whether Scala or Groovy or Java is best, but the fact that regardless of the language, the Java platform is and will continue to be the right destination for running, scaling and distributing your applications.

An interesting discussion thread on the topic broke out here at the Java Posse's google group.

http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse/browse_thread/thread/738730797d272c3d?pli=1

In this discussion, Mario Fusco make the comment that this statement would be almost like Henry Ford saying, as the Model T came towards the end of it's production life, "I could care less about the Model T." I thought that was a good analogy. Henry Ford was about manufacturing cars, not just one particular model. Gosling is about the platform, and Java is simply one of many ways to develop for that underlying platform.

A couple paragraphs later he also said "Java happens to be a really good language for a broad spectrum of topics."   If you pay attention to what he's saying, he likes that a JVM lets multiple languages work together which is not possible in other languages that don't run on something like a JVM.

Indeed.

The headline is getting loads of flack out there. I've already seen a few 'stories on the story' so far. I wrote this on another board that described the headline as being a bit too sensational. (Java Champion, longtime friend of TSS and prolific TSSJS presenter Kirk Pepperdine actually accused me of that. I may have to dig up some of Kirk's audio and see how far out of contenxt I can take him.)

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Indeed, headlines are intended to get attention, and it's a great headline. :) 

The headline is attention grabbing, but the story provides full context, including unedited audio and a full written transcript, so every effort is made to provide the full context surrounding the clip. The context is indeed there, but it can't all be included in a 40 character headline. 

I'd disagree on your point that it's taken out of context. I think it's context is pretty accurate. There are many debates about how great or bad the Java programming is. DZone is rife with them. What's James saying? He's saying, paraphrasing here, 'look, it's not just about Java as a programming language. If Java dies tomorrow, who cares? Even if Java is erased from history, what will remain is the Java platform, and that's what we're all about, that's what we embrace, and that's the great accomplishment that we should be really proud of and innovating around.' 

So, I think it's accurate. James could care less about Java. What he cares about is the Java Platform, the JVM, and the possibilities that it creates. As an engineer, the top level language that generates the bytecode isn't important. The destination, the JVM, and the possibilities that is provides *is* what is important. 

I think that's a great message to get out there, and I think it's worth repeating. And yeah, the headline may be intended to be attention grabbing, but if it gets people thinking about what's really important, and why we should be passionate about the Java platform, I don't think it's such a bad thing. 

Cheers.,

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By the way, despite the audio  clip, I have a feeling that James does indeed care about the Java programming. I'd bet that he cares about it a lot. 

Like languages that run on something like a Common Language Runtime?

 If you pay attention to what he's saying, he likes that a JVM lets multiple languages work together which is not possible in other languages that don't run on something like a JVM.

What are you saying, Cat? You've lost me. Dare I say it, after being accused of the same thing all day, but your post needs more context. 

Like languages that run on something like a Common Language Runtime?

Yes, particularly since Microsoft's CLR was originally built as a clean-room JVM ;-)

That's not strictly true. COM offered wide interoperability between languages; really, the key is agreement on calling convention and vtable layout, not a VM.

It's not really fair to characterize Gosling's remarks as saying he doesn't care about Java. Did you bother to read on? What he cares about is the JVM and what it enables. With the advent of languages other than the Java language that run on the JVM, the Java language's relevance is diminshing **as a new programming language**. However, there is a TON of legacy code written in the Java language. The Java language isnt' going anywhere. I seem to remember people predicting the demise of COBOL years ago. To my knowledge, COBOL still runs the majority of major bank software, for example.

Shame on you, TSS, for this sort of incendiary garbage. Have you been purchased by Rupert Murdoch? Please don't take reasonable remarks out of context just to get attention. The content should speak for itself.

Shame on you guys.

In the post above I explain how the article and headline are positioned.

I still don't think it's out of context. In fact, James even prefaces his comment by saying "this may sound odd coming from me," which I think emphasizes that his comment is not taken out of context. He says quite clearly that "I could hardly care less" and recognizes that "this may sound odd."

So, he clearly states that he could care less about the language, and that's what the headline reflects.

The article provides a full transcript of the comment, along with the audio, and the preamble above indicates that if you read more than the headline, "you'll probably find that the message isn't one of discouragement."

It's the nature of journalism that we're going to try and find eye catching headlines, and I think this is certainly one of them. I'm not putting words into James' mouth, or misquoting him. And by reading the article people will realize that the Java platform is more important than just the Java language itself, and that's a pretty strong message to be delivering to the community. Hopefully you'll see it that way too.

In the post above I explain how the article and headline are positioned.

I still don't think it's out of context. In fact, James even prefaces his comment by saying "this may sound odd coming from me," which I think emphasizes that his comment is not taken out of context. He says quite clearly that "I could hardly care less" and recognizes that "this may sound odd."

So, he clearly states that he could care less about the language, and that's what the headline reflects.

The article provides a full transcript of the comment, along with the audio, and the preamble above indicates that if you read more than the headline, "you'll probably find that the message isn't one of discouragement."

It's the nature of journalism that we're going to try and find eye catching headlines, and I think this is certainly one of them. I'm not putting words into James' mouth, or misquoting him. And by reading the article people will realize that the Java platform is more important than just the Java language itself, and that's a pretty strong message to be delivering to the community. Hopefully you'll see it that way too.

 

It's the nature of journalism that we're going to try and find eye catching headlines

Hmm, if forcing a title is the last resort...

It's a sign of the times.

Anyway, IMHO, I don't think that these techniques are in the nature of journalism tout-court.

This is the nature of  of journalism of little worth.

[...] the Java language's relevance is diminshing **as a new programming language**. However, there is a TON of legacy code written in the Java language. The Java language isnt' going anywhere. I seem to remember people predicting the demise of COBOL years ago. To my knowledge, COBOL still runs the majority of major bank software, for example.

Agreed, but how is that reassuring? COBOL is a utterly boring and unsatisfying language, and I would quit any job that forced me to program using it.

I think the author of this post is employee of oracle. It's his way of venting fustration.

Hi "Time Passx',

I think the author of this post is employee of oracle. It's his way of venting fustration.

What a silly statement. Why would an Oracle employee be frustrated by this? James Gosling is "the father of Java", which is a language and platform that Oracle (including many people from Sun who worked with James) is making huge investments in, and which continues to be hugely successful in the marketplace.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle